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IDProjectCategoryLast Update
0024574AI War 2Balance IssueMar 19, 2021 4:43 pm
ReporterMetrekec Assigned ToChris_McElligottPark  
Severityminor 
Status resolvedResolutionfixed 
Product VersionBeta 2.758 Threat Explanation 
Fixed in VersionBeta 2.760 Xenophiles And Overlords 
Summary0024574: Supercat died Beta 2.758
DescriptionFull Ensemble 10/10/10/10, Base game + DLC1, Vanilla, default options. Realistic map, 80 planets. Mostly played at 3x speed, though did use 5x speed occasionally while waiting for construction/metal

Classic starting fleet with Artillery and Webbed defenses. This is the best start for a Core focused build in my mind, as Nucleo + Tritium snipers do a lot of work. Spider + sniper turrets are also great for beachheading. Overloading support factory for speed.

Main techs were Core and Piercing, both at 3. Did not invest in Strikecraft Hulls (1 Turret) as they were not worth it.

Started in the middle of the map with a 2 planet line to guarantee as many "free" early drops in as little planet as possible, resulted in one planet having both TSS and ARS and the chokepoint planet having a transport and a backdoor factory

Only hacked any TSS 2 times at most as 3 times was prohibitively expensive and dangerous. 3rd ARS hack was also risky and expensive. Ended up with 5 turret lines and 6 ship lines in relevant tech, along with 1 siphoner frigate as a second forcefield-tech related ship.

Started with finding a transport with 3 Core ships, which guaranteed a very powerful early game. Piercing was mostly used for Stingrays in order to counter Bubble Forcefields.

Put a military command station with maximum turrets and a few spiders and snipers on my home command chokepoint. No ship ever got past it, no matter how much the AI threw waves at it. The AI was still sometimes throwing waves at it 5 hours into the game, and it always ate up a decent chunk of each CPA.

Used logistics stations while getting across the galaxy, as their ability to tarpit the enemy meant I did not need the power of military command stations to deal with waves. Even if the enemy eventually started threatening the command station, my fleet would be able to arrive and defend it easily.

Every command station got 1 planet upgrade. For 500 science, the bonus was always worth it.

Biggest challenge was getting past the first Praetorian Guard encounter, as I only had a few piercing at MkIV due to a tech vault along the way. Ended up maxing out my metal bank, dumping all my battlestation turrets in a corner and pray that my ships could distract the enemy long enough for the turrets to build. It ended up working out. Because this seemed to work so well, I ended up putting 2 points into Orbital Mining to boost my metal gain even farther.

Only 1 Data center ended up spawning out of my way, so I was at 100 AIP until my last couple of bastion worlds. Did not end up taking a MDC as it was out of the way, but otherwise probably would have picked it up.

Ended up taking the Bastion world next to the AI homeworld and cutting it off on both sides. Was worried that the fleet buildup would become problematic, but..

When I started the homeworld assault, the Hunter fleet as well as Exogalactic Ships all went off to attack the command station on the other side, causing them to mostly all die to the military station there. Interestingly, despite the planet also being connected to another with a Zenith Matter Converted and an Economy station, the AI focused solely on the Military Command Station, basically killing off all its Exos and hunter fleet. When I killed the homeworld, 3 exogalactic ships were parked on the planet next to the Military Command Station, presumably sulking that their plan didn't work out rather than helping their boss.


Suggested tweaks:

I'd suggest lowering the amount of forcefields and focused gravity generators for Logistical stations. The amount of slowdown and tankiness felt ridiculous to the point where I was almost never worried about the AI threatening those planets, as my fleet would be able to cut them off and basically cull threat for free if they committed.

I also feel like military command stations are too strong, or the AI does not properly measure their danger. The AI should not have kept throwing waves pointlessly at my chokepoint for the entire match, and I have no idea what the hunter fleet was hoping to accomplish at the end of the game. Some of my planets ended up falling due to waves kicking in at 175 AIP, but the rush off the homeworld didn't even end up killing anything by itself.
A lower cap on military station turret count or damage multiplier would make sense, or the AI learning how to handle them better and stop committing pointless waves to them.

I don't know how much of an impact higher AIP while making my way to the homeworld would have been, but the amount of data centers that happened to spawn right in my chosen path seemed a little high. Maybe they need better spacing rules.

It's also a bit silly that after killing the first phase of the AI, I get a science boost, which I can immediately invest into military stations around the second phase and trivialize it by suddenly having 2-3x damage against it.

Overall was quite a fun and challenging experience though, glad to have attempted and succeeded it!
TagsNo tags attached.

Relationships

related to 0024579 assignedChris_McElligottPark 350 Praetorian guard stuck outside of homeworld as sitting ducks during homeworld assault 
related to 0024578 assignedChris_McElligottPark Hunter fleet responds slowly to changes in planet situation during Homeworld Assault 

Activities

Metrekec

Mar 17, 2021 10:14 pm

reporter  

Game Won.save (1,424,125 bytes)

Metrekec

Mar 17, 2021 10:27 pm

reporter  

Pure10WinPart1.7z (4,892,962 bytes)

Metrekec

Mar 17, 2021 10:27 pm

reporter  

Pure10WinPart3.7z (4,941,558 bytes)
Pure10WinPart2.7z (2,910,046 bytes)

Metrekec

Mar 17, 2021 10:27 pm

reporter  

Pure10WinPart4.7z (3,005,715 bytes)
Pure10WinPart5.7z (4,681,387 bytes)

Metrekec

Mar 17, 2021 10:28 pm

reporter   ~0060816

Adding full save folder with each saved named a bit silly (sorry about the seperate attachments, the form kept getting refused. Major events should still be clear though. Also adding screenshot of my main fleet. Picking up Inciting Parasites was a huge powerspike for its cost.

One other issue: Instigators can be savescummed for their type, which meant I could reload the save each time to get an instigator I could safely ignore. I would make their spawn based on the map seed to avoid this issue, like ARS rolls.
The_Bulk_of_the_fleet.png (147,570 bytes)   
The_Bulk_of_the_fleet.png (147,570 bytes)   

Metrekec

Mar 18, 2021 8:06 pm

reporter   ~0060829

Made two new bugs for what seemed to be erroneous behavior in my mind by the AI. The Praetorian Guard camping on norg V in particular seems like a bug.

Chris_McElligottPark

Mar 19, 2021 4:25 pm

administrator   ~0060834

Okay, I have first of all change it so that you no longer get the science boost and similar from killing phase 1.

Also, secondly, that big overhaul of phase 2: https://wiki.arcengames.com/index.php?title=AI_War_2:Multiplayer_Alpha_And_Beta#The_New_AI_Overlord_Phase_2

I also made some adjustments to the logic for defenders when this is in phase 2, but I can't tell yet if it's fully doing the job.

Chris_McElligottPark

Mar 19, 2021 4:43 pm

administrator   ~0060835

And the last bit. Thanks!

* Logistical command station balance adjustments:
** Tractors down from 14 to 10.
** Forcefields down from 6 to 3.
** Gravity generators down from 6 to 3.
** Base allied speed multiplier down from 3.5x to 2.5x, plus 0.5x per mark rather than 1x per mark.
** Metal production down from 120 base + 80 per mark to 90 base plus 50 per mark.
** Energy production down from 250k base + 100k per mark to 175k base + 50k per mark.
** These are no longer quite such a huge standalone middle ground between economic and military. The goal is for people to use all three kinds, just in various ratios. These are also just not quite as good at slowing down enemies to a ridiculous degree like they used to be.

* Military commadn station balance adjustments:
** Tractors down from 22 to 16.
** Immobile forcefields down from 4 to 3.
** Allied attack multiplier down from 1.25x to 1.1x, and amount added per mark down to 0.15 rather than 0.25.
** Defensive cap multiplier also down from 1.33 to 1.15.
** Metal production down from 60 base + 40 per mark to 50 base plus 20 per mark.
** Energy production alerted from 40k base + 20k per mark to 70k base + 10k per mark.
** These planets were such insane roadblocks for the AI that the only thing offsetting them was player metal and energy. We want these to combo well with economic, but it was just a bit too much. The economic changes also make it more stand-alone on the energy side, but less so on the metal side.

* Economic command station balance adjustments:
** Forcefields down from 2 to 1.
** Gravity generators up from 0 to 1.
** Metal generation up from 250 base + 200 per mark to 400 base + 220 per mark.
** Energy generation up from 400k base + 200k per mark to 500k base + 240k per mark.
** These changes make them slightly more vulnerable even than they were before, but good grief can these power a ton of other planets in terms of metal and energy.

Issue History

Date Modified Username Field Change
Mar 17, 2021 10:12 pm Metrekec New Issue
Mar 17, 2021 10:14 pm Metrekec File Added: Game Won.save
Mar 17, 2021 10:27 pm Metrekec File Added: Pure10WinPart1.7z
Mar 17, 2021 10:27 pm Metrekec File Added: Pure10WinPart3.7z
Mar 17, 2021 10:27 pm Metrekec File Added: Pure10WinPart2.7z
Mar 17, 2021 10:27 pm Metrekec File Added: Pure10WinPart4.7z
Mar 17, 2021 10:27 pm Metrekec File Added: Pure10WinPart5.7z
Mar 17, 2021 10:28 pm Metrekec File Added: The_Bulk_of_the_fleet.png
Mar 17, 2021 10:28 pm Metrekec Note Added: 0060816
Mar 17, 2021 10:47 pm Metrekec Description Updated
Mar 18, 2021 8:03 pm Metrekec Relationship added related to 0024579
Mar 18, 2021 8:03 pm Metrekec Relationship added related to 0024578
Mar 18, 2021 8:06 pm Metrekec Note Added: 0060829
Mar 19, 2021 4:25 pm Chris_McElligottPark Note Added: 0060834
Mar 19, 2021 4:43 pm Chris_McElligottPark Assigned To => Chris_McElligottPark
Mar 19, 2021 4:43 pm Chris_McElligottPark Status new => resolved
Mar 19, 2021 4:43 pm Chris_McElligottPark Resolution open => fixed
Mar 19, 2021 4:43 pm Chris_McElligottPark Fixed in Version => Beta 2.760 Xenophiles And Overlords
Mar 19, 2021 4:43 pm Chris_McElligottPark Note Added: 0060835