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IDProjectCategoryDate SubmittedLast Update
0024360AI War 2Bug - GameplayJan 26, 2021 7:05 amJan 27, 2021 10:06 am
ReporterTim_Fragmagnet Assigned ToChris_McElligottPark  
Status resolvedResolutionfixed 
Product VersionBeta 2.722 AI Wave Balance 
Fixed in VersionBeta 2.723 AI Accountant Fired, And Relentless Waves 
Summary0024360: Warden fleet borderline nonexistant in the games I played. Maybe something wrong with their budget after the 2.716 balance pass?
DescriptionSomething is wrong with the warden fleet. I don't know what, I don't have any saves to provide. But in the games I have recently played or started up, the warden fleet basically just has not existed.

I played through a 16.5 hour 8888 game and I did not see the wardens actively move to defend something ONCE. I don't think I even saw them during the homeworld attack.

In contrast, I have seen hunter fleets far larger than I ever remember seeing. I'm getting hunter fleets in excess of 120 combined strength, literally 60 minutes into a game.

I don't know how warden and hunter budgets work, but I've seen mentions of them being able to donate to each other. It's almost like the hunter fleet is taking the warden's budget, either that or the AI is funding massive hunter fleets and then just ignoring the warden fleet.

In the end, no, I don't know exactly what's wrong, and I don't have a save to provide. But I'm not the only one who thinks the warden fleet is either too weak or flat out non functioning.
TagsNo tags attached.

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ArnaudB

Jan 26, 2021 7:45 am

manager   ~0060395

I used the filter options to have a look in my recent 200-400 AIP games and something is up.

Using full vision there were pathetic amount of warden and praetorian available. About 20 strength worth which feels very wrong at 200+ AIP. I do believe Warden gets its initial budget, but I suspect praetorian and warden might have most of their income somehow ending back up into Sentinel.

I've compiled a short list of budget spending at 200+ AIP over a bit. The income to special force is about 2.5 times higher than hunter fleet. Praetorian doesn't seem to have stocked up except toward the end of the list (presumably when I first entered the homeworld).
budgetReport.txt (9,611 bytes)    
D:\SteamLibrary\steamapps\common\AI War 2\PlayerData\ArcenDebugLog.txt (26 hits)
	Line 2233: 1/26/2021 1:25:46 PM	2.722	SINGLEP	AI Spending 2088.098 on  SpecialForces at  10048 since we are over the spend threshold of 2021AI Spending 752.897 on  HunterFleet at  10048 since we are over the spend threshold of 399We have threat level 2.44 and budget 60895.8. Target cost for Wendigo is 71666 target faction id -1 alliance Friendly To Players
	Line 2238: 1/26/2021 1:25:57 PM	2.722	SINGLEP	AI Spending 2088.098 on  SpecialForces at  10079 since we are over the spend threshold of 2021AI Spending 752.897 on  HunterFleet at  10079 since we are over the spend threshold of 399We have threat level 2.44 and budget 66168.9. Target cost for Wendigo is 71666 target faction id -1 alliance Friendly To Players
	Line 2407: 1/26/2021 1:26:08 PM	2.722	SINGLEP	AI Spending 1909.122 on  SpecialForces at  10109 since we are over the spend threshold of 1892AI Spending 681.489 on  HunterFleet at  10109 since we are over the spend threshold of 373We have threat level 2.44 and budget 71089.9. Target cost for Wendigo is 71666 target faction id -1 alliance Friendly To Players
	Line 2411: 1/26/2021 1:26:20 PM	2.722	SINGLEP	AI Spending 1955.015 on  SpecialForces at  10140 since we are over the spend threshold of 1892AI Spending 695.516 on  HunterFleet at  10140 since we are over the spend threshold of 373We have threat level 2.44 and budget 4403.7. Target cost for Hunter / Seeker is 49500 target faction id -1 alliance Friendly To Players
	Line 2576: 1/26/2021 1:26:31 PM	2.722	SINGLEP	AI Spending 1955.015 on  SpecialForces at  10171 since we are over the spend threshold of 1892AI Spending 695.516 on  HunterFleet at  10171 since we are over the spend threshold of 373We have threat level 2.44 and budget 9459.8. Target cost for Hunter / Seeker is 49500 target faction id -1 alliance Friendly To Players
	Line 2580: 1/26/2021 1:26:42 PM	2.722	SINGLEP	AI Spending 1955.015 on  SpecialForces at  10202 since we are over the spend threshold of 1892AI Spending 695.516 on  HunterFleet at  10202 since we are over the spend threshold of 373We have threat level 2.44 and budget 14515.9. Target cost for Hunter / Seeker is 49500 target faction id -1 alliance Friendly To Players
	Line 2584: 1/26/2021 1:26:53 PM	2.722	SINGLEP	AI Spending 1955.015 on  SpecialForces at  10233 since we are over the spend threshold of 1892AI Spending 695.516 on  HunterFleet at  10233 since we are over the spend threshold of 373We have threat level 2.44 and budget 19572. Target cost for Hunter / Seeker is 49500 target faction id -1 alliance Friendly To Players
	Line 2748: 1/26/2021 1:27:04 PM	2.722	SINGLEP	AI Spending 1955.015 on  SpecialForces at  10264 since we are over the spend threshold of 1892AI Spending 695.516 on  HunterFleet at  10264 since we are over the spend threshold of 373We have threat level 2.44 and budget 24628.1. Target cost for Hunter / Seeker is 49500 target faction id -1 alliance Friendly To Players
	Line 2760: 1/26/2021 1:27:17 PM	2.722	SINGLEP	AI Spending 1955.015 on  SpecialForces at  10295 since we are over the spend threshold of 1892AI Spending 695.516 on  HunterFleet at  10295 since we are over the spend threshold of 373We have threat level 2.44 and budget 29684.2. Target cost for Hunter / Seeker is 49500 target faction id -1 alliance Friendly To Players
	Line 2919: 1/26/2021 1:27:28 PM	2.722	SINGLEP	AI Spending 1955.015 on  SpecialForces at  10326 since we are over the spend threshold of 1892AI Spending 695.516 on  HunterFleet at  10326 since we are over the spend threshold of 373We have threat level 2.44 and budget 34740.3. Target cost for Hunter / Seeker is 49500 target faction id -1 alliance Friendly To Players
	Line 2923: 1/26/2021 1:27:38 PM	2.722	SINGLEP	AI Spending 1955.015 on  SpecialForces at  10357 since we are over the spend threshold of 1892AI Spending 695.516 on  HunterFleet at  10357 since we are over the spend threshold of 373We have threat level 2.44 and budget 39796.4. Target cost for Hunter / Seeker is 49500 target faction id -1 alliance Friendly To Players
	Line 2927: 1/26/2021 1:27:49 PM	2.722	SINGLEP	AI Spending 1955.015 on  SpecialForces at  10388 since we are over the spend threshold of 1892AI Spending 695.516 on  HunterFleet at  10388 since we are over the spend threshold of 373We have threat level 2.44 and budget 44852.5. Target cost for Hunter / Seeker is 49500 target faction id -1 alliance Friendly To Players
	Line 3093: 1/26/2021 1:28:00 PM	2.722	SINGLEP	AI Spending 1955.015 on  SpecialForces at  10419 since we are over the spend threshold of 1892AI Spending 695.516 on  HunterFleet at  10419 since we are over the spend threshold of 373We have threat level 2.44 and budget 326.2. Target cost for Wyrm is 66000 target faction id -1 alliance Friendly To Players
	Line 3097: 1/26/2021 1:28:23 PM	2.722	SINGLEP	AI Spending 1955.015 on  SpecialForces at  10450 since we are over the spend threshold of 1892AI Spending 695.516 on  HunterFleet at  10450 since we are over the spend threshold of 373We have threat level 2.44 and budget 5382.3. Target cost for Wyrm is 66000 target faction id -1 alliance Friendly To Players
	Line 3280: 1/26/2021 1:28:33 PM	2.722	SINGLEP	AI Spending 1955.015 on  SpecialForces at  10481 since we are over the spend threshold of 1892AI Spending 695.516 on  HunterFleet at  10481 since we are over the spend threshold of 373We have threat level 2.44 and budget 10438.4. Target cost for Wyrm is 66000 target faction id -1 alliance Friendly To Players
	Line 3284: 1/26/2021 1:28:45 PM	2.722	SINGLEP	AI Spending 1955.015 on  SpecialForces at  10512 since we are over the spend threshold of 1892AI Spending 695.516 on  HunterFleet at  10512 since we are over the spend threshold of 373We have threat level 2.44 and budget 15494.5. Target cost for Wyrm is 66000 target faction id -1 alliance Friendly To Players
	Line 3294: 1/26/2021 1:29:00 PM	2.722	SINGLEP	AI Spending 1955.015 on  SpecialForces at  10543 since we are over the spend threshold of 1892AI Spending 695.516 on  HunterFleet at  10543 since we are over the spend threshold of 373We have threat level 2.44 and budget 20550.6. Target cost for Wyrm is 66000 target faction id -1 alliance Friendly To Players
	Line 3470: 1/26/2021 1:29:11 PM	2.722	SINGLEP	AI Spending 1955.015 on  SpecialForces at  10574 since we are over the spend threshold of 1892AI Spending 695.516 on  HunterFleet at  10574 since we are over the spend threshold of 373We have threat level 2.44 and budget 25606.7. Target cost for Wyrm is 66000 target faction id -1 alliance Friendly To Players
	Line 3474: 1/26/2021 1:29:29 PM	2.722	SINGLEP	AI Spending 1987.463 on  SpecialForces at  10605 since we are over the spend threshold of 1967AI Spending 706.664 on  HunterFleet at  10605 since we are over the spend threshold of 388We have threat level 2.44 and budget 30708.3. Target cost for Wyrm is 66000 target faction id -1 alliance Friendly To Players
	Line 3645: 1/26/2021 1:29:54 PM	2.722	SINGLEP	AI Spending 2032.391 on  SpecialForces at  10636 since we are over the spend threshold of 1967AI Spending 723.044 on  HunterFleet at  10636 since we are over the spend threshold of 388We have threat level 2.44 and budget 35872.9. Target cost for Wyrm is 66000 target faction id -1 alliance Friendly To Players
	Line 3651: 1/26/2021 1:30:18 PM	2.722	SINGLEP	AI Spending 2032.391 on  SpecialForces at  10667 since we are over the spend threshold of 1967AI Spending 723.044 on  HunterFleet at  10667 since we are over the spend threshold of 388We have threat level 2.44 and budget 41037.5. Target cost for Wyrm is 66000 target faction id -1 alliance Friendly To Players
	Line 3657: 1/26/2021 1:30:33 PM	2.722	SINGLEP	AI Spending 2129.703 on  SpecialForces at  10699 since we are over the spend threshold of 2067AI Spending 420.579 on  HunterFleet at  10699 since we are over the spend threshold of 420AI Spending 354.565 on  PraetorianGuard at  10699 since we are over the spend threshold of 350We have threat level 2.44 and budget 46433.1. Target cost for Wyrm is 66000 target faction id -1 alliance Friendly To Players
	Line 3834: 1/26/2021 1:30:45 PM	2.722	SINGLEP	AI Spending 2198.099 on  SpecialForces at  10730 since we are over the spend threshold of 2163AI Spending 376.173 on  PraetorianGuard at  10730 since we are over the spend threshold of 376We have threat level 2.44 and budget 52023.3. Target cost for Wyrm is 66000 target faction id -1 alliance Friendly To Players
	Line 3838: 1/26/2021 1:30:58 PM	2.722	SINGLEP	AI Spending 2289.789 on  SpecialForces at  10761 since we are over the spend threshold of 2247AI Spending 404.682 on  PraetorianGuard at  10761 since we are over the spend threshold of 404We have threat level 2.44 and budget 57871.1. Target cost for Wyrm is 66000 target faction id -1 alliance Friendly To Players
	Line 4010: 1/26/2021 1:31:12 PM	2.722	SINGLEP	AI Spending 2344.623 on  SpecialForces at  10792 since we are over the spend threshold of 2279AI Spending 421.108 on  PraetorianGuard at  10792 since we are over the spend threshold of 410We have threat level 2.44 and budget 63878.5. Target cost for Wyrm is 66000 target faction id -1 alliance Friendly To Players
	Line 4019: 1/26/2021 1:31:50 PM	2.722	SINGLEP	AI Spending 2724.309 on  SpecialForces at  10825 since we are over the spend threshold of 2643AI Spending 506.157 on  PraetorianGuard at  10825 since we are over the spend threshold of 503We have threat level 2.54 and budget 4671.8. Target cost for Hunter / Seeker is 49500 target faction id -1 alliance Friendly To Players
budgetReport.txt (9,611 bytes)   
ArcenDebugLog.txt (379,708 bytes)
Hope 14.save (1,027,822 bytes)
Hope 16.save (1,264,153 bytes)

RocketAssistedPuffin

Jan 26, 2021 8:39 am

reporter   ~0060396

My theory, tested by Arnaud and seemingly correct:

https://wiki.arcengames.com/index.php?title=AI_War_2:Multiplayer_Alpha_And_Beta#Beta_2.710_The_AIs_Visit_An_Accountant

This update. Specifically the alterations to the Warden and Praetorian caps, from this style:

warden_fleet_cap_in_budget_seconds="800"

To this style:

warden_fleet_strength_cap_per_aip="126"

The ai_cost_to_purchase of units, and the Internal Strength of units, were very similar before the strength calculation formula was altered. Meaning if a V-Wing cost 28, it would be roughly 28 Internal Strength. The formula change has altered this, but I imagine it's similar enough for this example.

So, if we had an AI, with a Difficulty 7 Warden (the values up there are for it), at 10 AIP, the budget cap would be 1,260. Since ai_cost_to_purchase is similar to the Internal Strength, this'd mean the Warden Fleet would only be about 1.2 In-Game Strength.

Arnaud changed this value for his Difficulty 8 Warden in a save, up to 20,000, and noted it was then producing many more ships than before, despite the same income.

His cap originally, using his listed AIP of 286:

192 * 286 = 54,912

The Praetorian uses the same style, and is reported to have a similar problem of being insignificant.

Chris_McElligottPark

Jan 26, 2021 10:23 am

administrator   ~0060397

Huh -- I really don't remember why I moved the caps downward like that. I think perhaps the PG in particular was giving truly fearsome values that were overwhelming in my tests with the early game. But a lot of balancing has happened since then.

Chris_McElligottPark

Jan 27, 2021 10:06 am

administrator   ~0060401

Thanks!

* The budgets for the Warden and Praetorian Guard were fine, but their CAPS have been off since 2.710. They were simply set too low for the AI to ever really field any of them.
*** Basically a "cap per AIP" of 22 for the PG at difficulty 5 would mean that at 100 AIP, that means a strength cap of 2,200. In visible-to-players game units, that means... 2.2 strength. Woooow that's a poor PG.
** But just increasing the numbers was not going to go well, because a high "cap per AIP" means that the game gets linearly more difficult as the AIP rises. This is part of the problem we had before. So it's time for SEVERAL new mechanisms.

* On the PG, we still have praetorian_guard_strength_cap_per_aip, but now we also have praetorian_guard_base_strength_cap.
** We also have a new praetorian_guard_strength_cap_per_aip_above_200, praetorian_guard_strength_cap_per_aip_above_400, and praetorian_guard_strength_cap_per_aip_above_600.
** These numbers let us have the game curve the difficulty up over time in a sub-linear fashion for a while, and then gradually shift to something more than linear (not exponential, though).

* New PG changes:
** Diff 1:
*** Was per-AIP: 3
*** Now base: 2000, per-AIP: 20, per-AIP-above-200: 10, per-AIP-above-400: 15, per-AIP-above-600: 30.
*** Quick note: these numbers are additive. So at 700 AIP, the formula for calculating the strength cap is as follows:
**** 2000 + ( 20 * 700 ) + ( 10 * (700-200) ) + ( 15 * (700-400) ) + ( 30 * (700-600) ). Aka a total of 28500, or 28.5k of max strength. This is still pathetic, but hey it's difficulty 1. The old number was 2100, or 2.1k of strength, which is nonexistent by comparison.
** Rather than show you all the numbers in this hard to read format, here's a spreadsheet that has the new numbers for the PG and for the Warden, and a comparison to the old numbers: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Oqhe_evrtzDOKyVBfwZq27zVZu6WJw8oaa2CZWxgZyc/edit?usp=sharing

* In the difficulty tooltips for the warden and the PG, it now shows what the strength cap would be at AIP 100, 300, and 700 to give players an idea of the progression without showing them all the math directly.

Issue History

Date Modified Username Field Change
Jan 26, 2021 7:05 am Tim_Fragmagnet New Issue
Jan 26, 2021 7:08 am Tim_Fragmagnet Summary Warden fleet borderline nonexistant in the game's I've played. Maybe something wrong with their budget after the balance pass? => Warden fleet borderline nonexistant in the games I've played. Maybe something wrong with their budget after the balance pass?
Jan 26, 2021 7:09 am Tim_Fragmagnet Summary Warden fleet borderline nonexistant in the games I've played. Maybe something wrong with their budget after the balance pass? => Warden fleet borderline nonexistant in the games I played. Maybe something wrong with their budget after the 2.716 balance pass?
Jan 26, 2021 7:45 am ArnaudB File Added: budgetReport.txt
Jan 26, 2021 7:45 am ArnaudB File Added: ArcenDebugLog.txt
Jan 26, 2021 7:45 am ArnaudB File Added: Hope 14.save
Jan 26, 2021 7:45 am ArnaudB File Added: Hope 16.save
Jan 26, 2021 7:45 am ArnaudB Note Added: 0060395
Jan 26, 2021 8:39 am RocketAssistedPuffin Note Added: 0060396
Jan 26, 2021 10:21 am Chris_McElligottPark Assigned To => Chris_McElligottPark
Jan 26, 2021 10:21 am Chris_McElligottPark Status new => assigned
Jan 26, 2021 10:23 am Chris_McElligottPark Note Added: 0060397
Jan 27, 2021 10:06 am Chris_McElligottPark Status assigned => resolved
Jan 27, 2021 10:06 am Chris_McElligottPark Resolution open => fixed
Jan 27, 2021 10:06 am Chris_McElligottPark Fixed in Version => Beta 2.723 AI Accountant Fired, And Relentless Waves
Jan 27, 2021 10:06 am Chris_McElligottPark Note Added: 0060401