View Issue Details
| ID | Project | Category | Date Submitted | Last Update | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 0022873 | AI War 2 | Balance Issue | Feb 28, 2020 7:14 pm | Mar 1, 2020 4:59 pm | |
| Reporter | Ecthelon | Assigned To | |||
| Severity | major | ||||
| Status | closed | Resolution | fixed | ||
| Product Version | 2.005 Hotfix | ||||
| Summary | 0022873: Response to moving spire relic is insane | ||||
| Description | It's just absurdly excessive. It's quickly gotten to the point where I can't even move it to an adjacent planet. See attached save. Most of my fleets are in position to find a relic. Try and move it to even the nearest world and see what happens. Frankly everything the AI has been doing feels over the top. I've been struggling when several dire guardians and a several dozen normal guardians just suddenly decide to head to my spire capital. | ||||
| Tags | No tags attached. | ||||
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Manual 2.savemet (86 bytes)
UK 375325007 11106 Scourge <color=#66ffce>Easier </color> Full Ensemble Difficulty 7 3 |
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I loaded your save and moved the relic from Parr to Thalheim. The AI did respond strongly, but nothing that couldn't be defeated pretty easily by your fleet. The AI's counterattack was strong but easily withstood. You didn't even come close to losing, or even to taking critical infrastructure damage. |
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Similar conclusion but moving it to Voss. This didn't feel like much of a response. This is also with no Frigate Neural Nets, which would be an enormous boost in mobile firepower, and no supporting planets with Turrets to help absorb the attacks going after the Relic. This is Intensity 7 incidentally - it's meant to hurt a bit even at 5. EDIT: Moving it to the same planet Badger did was easier. |
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I've taken a look at this one as well. I agree that the response is notable, and that the dire nucleophilic guardians are beastly to the spire relic and cruisers. Then again, as Puffin said, you haven't added frigates to your fleets or otherwise worked to boost the firepower available to them. At intensity 5 with this response, I'd agree that it should be toned down a bit. At 7, it feels about right to me. |
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Interesting. When I tested it I instantly had a 180 strong fleet flood onto my world. Defeating it killed all the defences on that world and all but wiped my entire fleet. I certainly didn't have time to recover in time to collect the debris. Trying to move the relic any further than one world was impossible. It ALWAYS died no matter how I microed my fleet. |
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Oh and I almost always lost a GCA. |
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Yeah I tested it again. Moved it to Kamp. 380 enemy strength descended on it and wiped out absolutely everything. Simultaneously two other AI forces hammered through the Sirius and Yannaka command stations and almost got to my home command. |
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Okay I tested it twice more and it seems vastly inconsistent. Both times I tried to move it to Thalheim. The first time only about 90 strength showed up. The second 280. Both times however a simultaneous 270 strength force hit Yannaka and proceeded to kill my home command. I attached a save from the aftermath of the latter. Hell.savemet (86 bytes)
UK 375325007 11801 Scourge <color=#66ffce>Easier </color> Full Ensemble Difficulty 7 0 |
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Hm, the inconsistency is odd. Suspect it's due to what the AI is buying, i.e investing more in Golems and Dire Guardians this time, which last longer so it's not worn down as quickly, compared to mostly little ships. Some notes in general from this: 1): Scourge assaults are part of it, not connected to Spire. Even Intensity 7 is on the scary side, and this is a few hours in when they're set up with their industry. 2): You have Spire city structures under Forcefields - they have millions of health, they don't need it and you're losing a lot of firepower. 3): Built two Shard Reactors but aren't using much of their output. Swapping Logisticals to Military, then a single upgrade in Military Tech would be an enormous improvement (double the Turrets, then +50% damage, so your firepower is 3x). Military Stations are king in Fallen Spire. 4): You'll need a lot more planets than you currently have. Cities start to require certain planet counts without Spire cities to Mark up - can't low AIP this. This is the Relic chase for the third city - it gets a lot scarier, even on intensity 5 (and this is 7). 5): Command Stations speed up the Relic. So you could have planets en route to the new City location, get the Relic there much faster, and have less response as a result. Things like that'll probably help a lot. There are several Command Augmenters too that can be used with all that Hacking. I'll try to look into the spawns a bit, since that is...curious, but just some tips for Spire in general. So far I have had one notable case, but the Relic survives with plenty of health left, so that's odd. EDIT: Capturing "Lehman" and putting Turrets in the path the AI forces take through there helps a good bit. With that it's handled okay, despite the Relic moving to "Kamp". EDIT 2: Rearranging the Cities a bit to get 2 Neural Nets, for 4 Frigates makes the chase pretty easy, moving to "Kamp" again. |
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Well this seems to have become more of an advice thread than bug report. Thanks! I guess I'll just try harder. :D |
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I think the issue here is the inconsistency in the AI response. Is there some logging that Ecthelon could turn on to see exactly what the AI is buying for these attacks? Badger, Rocket, do you mind me asking what Strength counts of enemy fleets you saw and where? |
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There is not. I can see the spent budget and it is consistent. It's likely just what exactly it picks to buy, which is totally fine being random. That save was pretty under-prepared for Intensity 7 Relic Chase, let alone the spike after (Extragalactic Tier 1 starts at 3 Cities). |
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You can look at how large the attacks are with by enabling Fallen Spire tracing. I'm not sure how helpful that will be without knowing the code, but you can see the numbers. |
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FWIW while I haven't looked at this save, I'm finding AI response to be pretty consistent on these. |
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On a related note, "chasing" the Relic train could use some tweaking. The train is too fast for the player's spire fleet to catch up, while getting the firepower to kill it with normal units is a tad too difficult. In my current game I got the next location for a chase near the AI Homeworlds, and the relic trains deep in enemy territory. The relic trains could use some tweaking, because right now it's excessively difficult to kill the damn thing for more cities. I haven't found dealing with the chases to be overbearing. You do need to be prepared. I have had more problems with Spire Debris. The early-ones have a timer of over one hour, and weirdly enough later ones have a timer of 10-12 min. It's an odd inconsistency. |
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Closing as person has noted beating the scenario, and there doesn't seem to be much going on. |
| Date Modified | Username | Field | Change |
|---|---|---|---|
| Feb 28, 2020 7:14 pm | Ecthelon | New Issue | |
| Feb 28, 2020 7:14 pm | Ecthelon | File Added: Manual 2.bak | |
| Feb 28, 2020 7:14 pm | Ecthelon | File Added: Manual 2.save | |
| Feb 28, 2020 7:14 pm | Ecthelon | File Added: Manual 2.savemet | |
| Feb 28, 2020 7:22 pm | BadgerBadger | Note Added: 0056151 | |
| Feb 28, 2020 7:29 pm | RocketAssistedPuffin | Note Added: 0056152 | |
| Feb 28, 2020 7:29 pm | RocketAssistedPuffin | Note Edited: 0056152 | |
| Feb 28, 2020 7:42 pm | RocketAssistedPuffin | Assigned To | => RocketAssistedPuffin |
| Feb 28, 2020 7:42 pm | RocketAssistedPuffin | Status | new => acknowledged |
| Feb 28, 2020 7:42 pm | RocketAssistedPuffin | Assigned To | RocketAssistedPuffin => |
| Feb 28, 2020 7:43 pm | RocketAssistedPuffin | Note Edited: 0056152 | |
| Feb 28, 2020 7:53 pm | vinco | Note Added: 0056156 | |
| Feb 29, 2020 4:57 am | Ecthelon | Note Added: 0056170 | |
| Feb 29, 2020 4:58 am | Ecthelon | Note Added: 0056171 | |
| Feb 29, 2020 5:10 am | Ecthelon | Note Added: 0056172 | |
| Feb 29, 2020 5:28 am | Ecthelon | File Added: Hell.save | |
| Feb 29, 2020 5:28 am | Ecthelon | File Added: Hell.savemet | |
| Feb 29, 2020 5:28 am | Ecthelon | Note Added: 0056173 | |
| Feb 29, 2020 8:39 am | RocketAssistedPuffin | Note Added: 0056180 | |
| Feb 29, 2020 8:43 am | RocketAssistedPuffin | Note Edited: 0056180 | |
| Feb 29, 2020 9:02 am | RocketAssistedPuffin | Note Edited: 0056180 | |
| Feb 29, 2020 9:30 am | RocketAssistedPuffin | Note Edited: 0056180 | |
| Feb 29, 2020 10:00 am | RocketAssistedPuffin | Note Edited: 0056180 | |
| Feb 29, 2020 12:15 pm | Ecthelon | Note Added: 0056192 | |
| Feb 29, 2020 6:26 pm | Fluffiest | Note Added: 0056208 | |
| Feb 29, 2020 6:36 pm | RocketAssistedPuffin | Note Added: 0056209 | |
| Feb 29, 2020 7:16 pm | BadgerBadger | Note Added: 0056212 | |
| Feb 29, 2020 10:33 pm | Strategic Sage | Note Added: 0056214 | |
| Mar 1, 2020 3:48 am | ArnaudB | Note Added: 0056217 | |
| Mar 1, 2020 4:59 pm | RocketAssistedPuffin | Status | acknowledged => closed |
| Mar 1, 2020 4:59 pm | RocketAssistedPuffin | Resolution | open => fixed |
| Mar 1, 2020 4:59 pm | RocketAssistedPuffin | Note Added: 0056245 |
