View Issue Details
| ID | Project | Category | Date Submitted | Last Update | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 0001084 | AI War 1 / Classic | Suggestion - Balance Tweaks | Nov 4, 2010 5:30 pm | Nov 23, 2010 11:54 pm | |
| Reporter | colonyan | Assigned To | Chris_McElligottPark | ||
| Status | resolved | Resolution | fixed | ||
| Summary | 0001084: Worm hole usage cool down time needed | ||||
| Description | As an example, with long range of siege star ship, it is able to beat in many cases, AI fortress by keep getting in and out the worm hole just before fortress missiles hit the siege star ships. With 5 level one siege starship, a dozen or so repetition can kill Level III AI fortress with virtually no loss. There should be at least 10 seconds or so of cool down time for using worm hole to prevent this kind of abuse. Other than that, there could be even instant hit anti starship fortress branch. | ||||
| Tags | No tags attached. | ||||
| Internal Weight | |||||
| has duplicate | 0001294 | resolved | Chris_McElligottPark | Wormhole Exploit |
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then transports and cloaker starships would be used instead. |
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Yes, this is tricky. Perhaps fortresses simply need their bullets to fire faster, given all the possible ways to exploit that. Hmm. |
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OR, maybe bullets should massively speed up when chasing a target that is going for a wormhole, trying to get into a transport, or has a cloaking timer counting down. That could get kind of hokey, though. |
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Worm holes are too powerful to be place around the structure area. Its like you have warp hole just beside your neck where people can stick a knife in the warp hole from other side. Imagine a sunflower. Lets place worm holes on yellow flower petal area where its thick enough that no weapon can not reach central area from worm hole. Also, structures could be immune from sniper(pseudo infinite range) like weapon. |
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Maybe units warping away from a fortress could take damage - maybe a third of its maximum health each time. You could still station engineers on the other side of the wormhole, but at least you'd have to pay for repairs. |
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A balanced solution would be for shots to vanish when a ship warps out. If a siege ship sticks around long enough for its shots to hit, it will be taking some hurt. |
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I agree with TheDeadlyShoe's suggestion, shouldn't be able to shoot at stuff if you're not even in the same system. It would be nicer visually if rather than the ordanance disappearing immediately, it carried on flying through space without any collision detection & disappeared after a few seconds but I've probably been watching Battlestar Galactica too much =) |
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I second the TheDeadlyShoe's. That seems to solve. |
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There are a lot of good things about TheDeadlyShoe's suggestion, but I don't think it would work, for the following reasons: 1. It doesn't solve the issue with instant-hit shots like snipers or sentinel frigates. 2. It makes putting ships into transports while under fire a much more fiddly affair to some extent, though this is more minor. 3. It seriously nerfs ships with low health, as they tend to get off one volley and then die. When they die, if their shots disappear, that's trouble. And having shots disappear when a ship goes offworld versus dying seems kind of odd. The main thing is to probably make exiting through a wormhole a slower thing, with enemy shots speeding up somewhat toward something that is exiting. Same thing for transports, I expect. |
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Hmm, you know that logic I put in so that a ship unloaded from a transport has to go through the full reload cycle before it can fire? Maybe should do that for wormhole exit too. I had also thought that a ship shouldn't be able to enter a transport until it was done reloading, but that gets finicky with the auto-fire behavior, needing to schedule auto-entry-retries etc. |
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Chris perhaps the "pop in, pop out" effect of wormholes needs looked at in that case? Instantaneous travel between systems seems to be the issue here. Perhaps travelling through a wormhole needs to have a "spin up" time which increases by ship size so the fleet ships are unchanged but starships have a delay before they teleport through to the other side? I guess that would affect stuff like Raid starships too but it could be balanced with a bonus for those special blitzkrieg style ships. |
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I think that first would make exiting wormholes that are defended basically suicidal, and would make transports REQUIRED for attacking an adjacent planet, which is not desired. I agree with you on the re-entry parts also being problematic. The core problem here is that ships are able to outrun shots by going into transports or wormholes, moreso than anything else. Having a cooldown period before getting back into wormholes and transports does indeed seem the way to solve that in a lot of respects: there's no valid cases where ships should be popping in and out of transports or wormholes quicker than around 30 seconds or so. And when a ship is headed for a wormhole or a transport (or to becoming cloaked), having shots accelerate to hit them also strikes me as desirable for balance reasons. Sure, it will be a huge nerf to cloaked ships at first, but it will take some of the randomization out of them and thus would let us beef them up properly. Right now a lot of the complaints about mark I scouts boil down to randomization of whether or not shots hit them: if no shots hit them, they survive way too long even with 5k health, versus if a ton of shots hit them they die instantly. That makes them wildly inconsistent from scenario to scenario, which is also sort of the problem here with transports and wormholes. Taking away the transitional advantages of going cloaked, going into wormholes, or going into transports, strikes me as something that would be good all around. The advantage of cloaking, particularly, is about when you come OUT of being cloaked. |
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Maybe the AI could just develop a tendency to throw down minefields, tractor guards and other pleasantries near wormholes if you rapidly go in and out? It takes a while to down something like a fortress with siege starships so there should be some time to reinforce. |
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Chris, on the accelerating-shots thing, think that would help. Would seem a bit weird, but would help. But would it not encourage the player to manually give a move-order to be right on top of the wormhole, then pause right as the ship was right on top of it, and give it the traversal order? I suppose that a ship about to call SetCurrentPlanet could just cause all incoming shots to hit it immediately. Talk about feeling weird, though ;) |
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Well, a lot of players get really annoyed if they can't keep their wormhole travel paths clear, which makes sense to me, and this tactic is abusive even on planets where there is no AI reinforcement ability, so I think reinforcements are out. Possibly simply making the wormhole cooldown thing would be enough. Basically make it so that if the ship hasn't been on the planet for 30 seconds, it takes 30 - secondsonplanet to go through, with a little counter shown. And same for transports. Or something along those lines. This clearly needs more baking, but it probably needs to be something to do with traversal time or shot speed when something wants to escape. Or, perhaps this: shots are able to chase ships through wormholes, and if they were after a ship that gets into a transport, they hit the transport instead. Both of those seem natural to me. At present, sometimes ships can escape shots by getting far enough out of range, too (like teleporting ships). Making the speed of the shots increase the longer they chase any ship, rather than ever just fizzling, seems like it would solve a lot of fiddly-type things. Thus you can't ever use micro to escape the damage that is after you, basically. |
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Ah, right, if there were some way for the shot to chase the unit through the wormhole that would solve a lot of things. Traditionally very much counter to the "isolated" nature of planetary battlefields, but I think simply changing the "my target has gone through a wormhole, so disappear" logic to "my target has gone through a wormhole, so disappear and spawn a copy of myself on the other end of the wormhole" could work, though it would probably have to forget what it was fired by, etc, to avoid cross-planet interactions. |
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Well, even remembering what it was fired by is fine, I'm not too concerned about limited cases of cross-planet interactions in this sense. That already is possible if a ship fires and then exits through a wormhole, for instance. This is complex enough it needs to be left until a few weeks from now when we're in our hardcore balance/bugfix coding, I think, though. |
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> Possibly simply making the wormhole cooldown thing would be enough. If that, I'd say ignore it for friendly-to-friendly planets when there are no enemies in the source system (you can hop into battles instantly, but need to wait the 30 seconds to hop out). |
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Should the timer be only for going through the same hole again or would it apply to other holes too? |
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This was resolved a while back with the resolution noted in the other issue that is linked here. |
| Date Modified | Username | Field | Change |
|---|---|---|---|
| Nov 4, 2010 5:30 pm | colonyan | New Issue | |
| Nov 4, 2010 5:54 pm | Lancefighter | Note Added: 0002717 | |
| Nov 4, 2010 9:05 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Note Added: 0002734 | |
| Nov 4, 2010 9:06 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Note Added: 0002735 | |
| Nov 7, 2010 3:00 pm | colonyan | Note Added: 0002880 | |
| Nov 8, 2010 6:48 am | unclean | Note Added: 0002893 | |
| Nov 8, 2010 7:02 am | TheDeadlyShoe | Note Added: 0002894 | |
| Nov 8, 2010 9:04 am | Malibu Stacey | Note Added: 0002907 | |
| Nov 8, 2010 9:36 am | colonyan | Note Added: 0002917 | |
| Nov 8, 2010 9:46 am | Chris_McElligottPark | Note Added: 0002922 | |
| Nov 8, 2010 9:49 am | keith.lamothe | Note Added: 0002923 | |
| Nov 8, 2010 12:20 pm | Malibu Stacey | Note Added: 0002937 | |
| Nov 8, 2010 12:25 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Note Added: 0002939 | |
| Nov 8, 2010 12:33 pm | KDR_11k | Note Added: 0002944 | |
| Nov 8, 2010 12:39 pm | keith.lamothe | Note Added: 0002945 | |
| Nov 8, 2010 12:50 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Note Added: 0002950 | |
| Nov 8, 2010 12:57 pm | keith.lamothe | Note Added: 0002952 | |
| Nov 8, 2010 1:01 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Note Added: 0002953 | |
| Nov 8, 2010 7:00 pm | Draco18s | Note Added: 0003016 | |
| Nov 9, 2010 10:18 am | KDR_11k | Note Added: 0003068 | |
| Nov 12, 2010 11:58 am | HitmanN | Relationship added | has duplicate 0001294 |
| Nov 23, 2010 9:40 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Note Added: 0004357 | |
| Nov 23, 2010 9:40 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Status | new => resolved |
| Nov 23, 2010 9:40 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Resolution | open => fixed |
| Nov 23, 2010 9:40 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Assigned To | => Chris_McElligottPark |
