View Issue Details
| ID | Project | Category | Date Submitted | Last Update | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 0007863 | Valley 1 | Suggestion - Balancing Issues | May 16, 2012 11:23 am | May 17, 2012 4:24 am | |
| Reporter | Bluddy | Assigned To | Chris_McElligottPark | ||
| Severity | minor | ||||
| Status | resolved | Resolution | fixed | ||
| Product Version | 1.020 | ||||
| Fixed in Version | 1.021 | ||||
| Summary | 0007863: Nerfing double jump enchants | ||||
| Description | This is a design element where I'm having a hard time figuring out what the thinking behind it was. We had RtL, and it was cool, but it eliminated much of the challenge in the game. It was decided that it'd cost mana to balance it out, and then it was removed from the 'starting spell kit', which is great because this way it's something that you work for if you want it, and even after you get double jump this way you won't have it in the next continent until you craft it. Then, as soon as enchants were introduced, we suddenly had double jump enchants and triple jump enchants which don't cost mana. What was the thinking here? These things make RtL completely obsolete. Also, I feel that they completely change the dynamic of the game. Having a double jump partially negates falling damage and most platforms. Triple jump makes platforms completely obsolete and completely negates falling damage. It also makes the game much of the game a walk in the park as you effortlessly jump over your opponents. Now here's the thing: once you give these enchants out, it's really hard to take them back without people kicking and screaming. I'm as addicted to double jump as the next guy -- it never leaves my feet slot (the might if I go to windy areas, but that's a different issue). Even though I would LIKE them to be gone for gameplay purposes, I know that's not realistic. But how about nerfing them? Just as was done to storm dash to compensate for the fact that you always have it, it'd make sense that a double/triple jump enchant should have some extra cost because it's so overpowered that it completely modifies your gameplay. My suggestion is that if you use a second jump, you'll take 50% more damage (including from falls, which are easier to avoid anyway with a double jump). Using a triple jump will cause to take 100% more damage. This will make an actual need for RtL: I want it because it allows me to double jump with only a mana cost (and no defense penalty). Otherwise I have virtually no reason to get RtL unless I want to get a quadruple jump, which completely messes up the game. | ||||
| Tags | No tags attached. | ||||
| Internal Weight | Feature Suggestion | ||||
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Not supporting or rejcting this suggestion, but I would like to point out one thing. "These things make RtL completely obsolete." Not quite, RtL still lets you get one more jump (so double jump + RtL gives a triple jump, etc.) Also, RtL does not have an opportunity cost with very limited slots. Double jump and triple jump do. (What if you get a leg enchant that in every way except it doesn't have a double or triple jump, should you switch? You got plenty of slots for spells, so getting RtL doesn't have that kind of opportunity cost) Yea, that's a pretty minor thing, but it is still something, so RtL is not [i]completely[/i] obsolete, just mostly. :P Of course, this is me being literal kicking in, but I did want to stand up for RtL's few remaining advantages over the enchants. |
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In terms of the thinking behind these enchants: that free movement is more fun than extremely constrained movement. Constrained movement is fun for a while, but past a certain point it's more fun to just get on with it. In terms of having some negative costs to these, I've been thinking about that as well. Mainly that certain effects should inherently lower the amount of mana that you can use, or something of that nature. |
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I mentioned that use-case in the last line (only as 'quadruple jump'). Though I feel double and triple jump modify so much of the game, they really need to be toned down. RtL was a great mechanism for limiting over-jumping in the game, and it's been hurt by providing other, easier alternatives. Maybe if there were other leg enchants worth having, as you say, there would be an opportunity cost. But there aren't because double/triple jumps are just so much more powerful than anything else out there. The only exception may be the windstorm-negation enchant, about which I posted another mantis issue. Ultimately I'm saying these enchants need to be nerfed in some way. One way is in providing a good opportunity cost -- make other awesome leg enchants that can never have double/triple jump. Though I doubt anybody will actually be persuaded to switch, so I don't really think this will work. Another way is to make the enchant have a penalty, as some other OP things (like storm dash) have. |
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@x4000, Well, I got 'free movement' early on in my first continent. And I don't know if that's a good way of looking at it anyway. The game needs to challenge the player, and removing elements of the game takes away from the experience. Otherwise, why not have 4,5,6,7 jumps in a row? Also giving big boosts to the player permanently is a huge issue in a long game. Part of the challenge of the platforming game is jumping and reaching things and preventing falling damage and trying to avoid some monsters while making those monsters hard to dodge etc. In other words, movement itself and getting past things is the challenge. Double/triple jumps hurt all of those things. Like I said, I don't think you can take these things away now that they're out in the wild, but at the very least they should have a cost -- one that's not easily offset by another low-level enchant. |
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Instead of nerfing Double Jumps, you need to boost the other enchants. Make the jump-boosting ones SIGNIFICANTLY boost your jump. At least 2x what they do now. And add some side bonuses that Double Jumping wouldn't get, like falling speed reduction, ect. I don't think it's that double/triple jumps are overpowered as much as everything else is horribly underpowered. |
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If the jump boost makes you jump as if you had a double jump, then it's a double jump (without the ability to prevent falling damage), and it still makes RtL mostly unnecessary. I don't think you'll be able to make anything that competes with double jump enchants in terms of player choice, and that's because it makes the game significantly easier to double/triple jump past everything. It's just a huge advantage. Seriously, how many games do you know that even give you triple jump? Most have you work hard just to get the double jump, and that's what RtL used to be for -- something you had to work to get. Most platforming/sidescrolling games don't give you a triple jump (I can't think of any offhand that do give it to you) because it completely destroys so many of the platforming gameplay elements. |
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Okay, first of all, double / triple jump doesn't actually hurt the challenge of getting past things as long as there is variety in things to get past. In some ways, they add challenge, espescially when needing to use them to "zigzag" - jump forward, then jump backward - or for longer jumps without getting too high - low ceilings meaning you need to use the extra jumps low in the jumping path. The problem there is more a lack of hazardous terrain requiring fancy jumping than the ability to make fancy jumps. Secondly, for adding costs to double / triple jumps, I'm inclined to say no. If there was a cost, I'd be inclined to tie it to the increased "floatiness" - increased knockback when hit while it's in would fit the image. Adding some enchants that give other ways to jump might be a good way to make it so other options are attractive though; the main couple of jumps I can think of is wall-jumping (infinite, but requires something to jump off of), and flutter jumps (providing more horizontal distance rather than vertical distance). Thirdly, to deal with falling damage avoidance, firstly there is a reflex requirement to jump in time, which makes it require some skill. Complete removal, though, seems harsh - maybe calculate falling damage so that it's from highest point since leaving ground to landing point rather than highest point since last jump, and let the reflex jumps provide a damage reduction. |
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Well, how about moving all double jumping stuff back to RtL? Tier 1 would be a double jump, tier 2 and 3 would give you a bigger double jump, and tier 4 would be a triple jump. This way, if you want those things, you can go and get them, but they have a mana cost. The enchants could then just modify specific properties of jumps, but they couldn't give you another jump. I think an enchant that allows you to cling to a wall and then jump makes some sense, as does a limited climbing enchant, and enchant that makes you jump higher to different degrees etc. |
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BenMiff, can you name me a game that gives you triple jump? I can't think of one off hand. It's not really fair to blame the game if it doesn't have challenges for triple jumps (or even double jumps). It's really hard to generate enemies and terrain (especially procedurally) that single jump, double jump, triple jump and quadruple jump (enchants + RtL) players can all handle and yet be challenged by. |
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Okay, I was already planning on doing something like this after reading some comments from nanostrike and lunarknight64 yesterday anyhow, so folks don't need to get mad at Bluddy for bringing it up. ;) I hadn't really figured out how I was going to handle this, but then I realized that tying all the leg enchants to also have effects on mana makes a ton of sense balance-wise. So here we go: * The balance of the leg enchants is now intertwined with your max mana, making a wider array of choices more attractive rather than triple jump and double jump just being the always obvious go-to enchants for everyone to use. ** All of the legs-related enchants now either add to or reduce your max mana pool. If an enchant would reduce your mana below 1 you can still use that enchant, but you'll only have 1 mana and won't be able to cast any spells until you take the enchant off. ** The amount of mana increase/reduction is based on the base type of the enchant (what the icon of it is), and does not vary at all with the extra stats that the enchant might have based on its other attributes. ** The specific amounts of mana changes for each base enchant type (again, solely based on the icon) are: *** Niche Air Enchant: -30 mana *** Power Legs Enchant: +20 mana *** Featherweight Enchant: +20 mana *** Stone Legs Enchant: +30 mana *** Powerslide Enchant: +30 mana *** Double Jump Enchant: -100 mana *** Triple Jump Enchant: -200 mana ** What this means, in effect, is that now your mobility-enhancing enchants are also tied to increasing the amount of available mana you have. *** The gains that you can get off of these are comparably small, because having a high-base-mana character is something we want to be meaningful and having enchants devalue that is something we've been through in the recent past. But having it so that you can slide like megaman PLUS use slightly more expensive spells makes some of the various leg enchants a lot more appealing across the board. *** By the same token, the enchants that are increasing your jumping ability reduce your maximum mana ranging from a little to really quite a lot. This seems fitting if you think about it, because if you have a nimble character they typically are going to take some other penalties (and previously they were not doing so). *** For the triple-jump enchnat in particular, this creates yet another new use for the high-base-mana characters: being able to have access to the extra nimbleness plus the usual range of spells; as opposed to just having extra mana be a gateway to super-spells that largely don't exist yet. And, of course typically having higher mana comes at a tradeoff of lower health or lower base attack power with character stats in general, so again that plays into creating interesting choices and more classes rather than having everyone be super nimble alongside whatever else they are. |
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Bluddy: another game with triple jump would be all of the 3D mario games, and actually the New Super Mario Bros games as well. But it doesn't really work the way it does here. Also, I would posit that the way it works here is closer to how walljumping works in a lot of other games, minus some of the timing elements. That's neither here nor there, of course, but still. |
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That's going to further gimp low-mana characters and further overpower high-mana ones. High mana chars already have better shielding ability, more powerful spells, and a more easily-sustainable rate of fire. Now they get mobility too? Low mana characters are going to be pointless if this tend of "This will give incentive for high-mana characters" keeps up. There is going to be almost zero reason to play a Medieval or Robot character. They won't be able to double jump, they won't be able to cast powerful spells, and they wont' be able to shield effectively. |
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Chris, Nanostrike makes a good point. Maybe we need another stat: something like dexterity points. You use up dexterity points for enchants that modify your movement ability. It could also be related naturally to movement speed and jump height somehow. Perhaps most characters should be slower and have lower jumps, and only some characters (draconites?) would have movement/jump height bonuses. I think this makes sense. We already have the tank stat (HP) and the magic stats (mana, attack power). We're missing a stat to express being dexterous and nimble, which would apply to certain character types. If double jump and triple jump use up a lot of dexterity points (or whatever you want to call them), they would automatically balance out with mana without further boosting high-mana characters. |
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I'm going to have to agree with Nanostrike. We already have one mechanic that drains MP ability, spells. That is already a huge chunk of the game. Adding an enchant dealing with mobility that impacts the same resource just makes that resources even more overly desirable. Not sure what resource it should pull from. There are really only two other I can think of, attack power and HP. EDIT: Bluddy made a good point. There really is no appropriate stat for this to pull from right now. A new "Dexterity/Agility" stat seems like a good idea. |
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@Bluddy (just to get it out of the way): The most notable triple jump I can think of is actually an infinite jump, which is the Space Jump / Screw Attack in Metroid. @Nanostrike, Bluddy & TechSY730: Dexterity / Agility currently sound like just another MP bar, not to mention seeming a bit narrow; at the moment, the only thing I can see it being used for is Lightning Rocket / Storm Dash / Ride The Lightning, plus mobility enchants. Since mobility spells aren't the problem, it could be worthwhile giving characters an Enchant Capacity stat, and balancing all enchants (rather than just mobility) via every Enchant using up Enchant Capacity. (It'd also help a lot with limiting constant power gain via better enchants, since those better enchants come with a cost and so you actually have to think about which powerful ones to use rather than just picking the best ones in each category.) You could even have + Enchant Capacity enchants, so you can sacrifice slots to "improve" the rest even further. |
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Good points all around (and how did I forget to mention the Screw Attack?). The thing with adding a new stat is that it further complicates things as well as making this even less of an opportunity cost. The point is to make you give up something else when you choose to have double jump or triple jump. High mana characters don't get all of those things you mentioned AND mobility. They get ONE of a few different things -- and by the by, getting triple jump turns that high-mana character into a low-mana character. High-mana characters are already giving up raw attack power boosts and health, both of which are hugely important. The shields issue isn't something I want to really drag into this, because those are frankly kind of broken at the moment balance-wise. I'm largely regretting adding them, and have been since last year sometime. ;) I thought about having a max enchant points capacity, but that's riddled with issues with a procedural game like this and would be pretty impossible to ever get balanced right. Having a new dexterity stat could indeed affect stuff like movement speed or what have you, but trading the ability to move at a good speed for triple jump feels kind of gimpy in general. The point is, mana is essentially meant to be your currency, not your rate of fire (primarily): - You can use it to buy access to higher-power spells, but in so doing you're probably forgoing higher health or raw attack power. - You can use it to buy access to things like double and triple jump, but then forget the higher-power spells as well as the rest. - You can use it to buy access to a more sustained ROF, but again kiss your base damage and health goodbye. For a lot of the unusual-build loadouts for the game, it makes sense that mana is basically the go-to stat. A low-mana character isn't exactly gimped -- they might be a tank that simply uses ride the lightning for double-jump while getting a bit of extra mana boost by using something like Powerslide. Or they might be a pure DPS machine using very little health and not needing particularly much mana because the spells they are using cost low mana but are incredibly buffed by their attack strength stat. Now: I'm not saying that things are in perfect balance. But I am saying that I think this offsetting against mana makes the most sense. It may be that now Attack Strength isn't giving as much of a bonus as it needs to in order to be attractive as an alternative to mana. It may also be that shields need some heavy alterations so that they don't become a way to turn mana into health. Mana is mana, health is health -- being able to turn your infinite supply of mana into health is Bad Bad Bad for the game's balance in general. Thoughts? |
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I think this makes sense. Let's see how these changes work out. Attack strength is definitely not balanced enough against the other stats. Part of the problem is that it doesn't feel real -- you don't see its impact in clear stats (HP, mana) so it's not really tempting. And enchants take care of attack strength much more effectively I think. I'm not sure that mana != health. I think it makes sense that you should have defensive spells. In fact, I'd love to have the ability to reduce spell damage by shooting spells with the opposite elements. Short range area spells could then double as shields. The key with mana to health exchange is that it has to be a very temporary and possibly expensive exchange ie. you either get the timing just right to block or you lose a lot of health and possibly die. I'm not crazy about the shield spells themselves though. |
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Agreed on attack strength. I'll buff those some, as I think they need it. When it comes to mana != health, note that I'm not opposed to the idea of defensive spells. But in those cases, and the examples you gave, the proper formula would be mana + skill == health. Right now with the right balance, it's just mana + shields == health. That's what is bad about them. There were various ideas posted about things like stationary shields that you could set up as obstacles, or other things of that nature -- I think those make a lot more sense. You can't just turn those on and use them as a damage sponge while you go running through the level. |
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The thing is that after these changes, you're making Age of Magic characters pretty much the best in the game. After mana upgrades, they'll be able to have over 600 mana, easily still having the 400+ for casting the big spells with a Triple Jump Enchant. And with a decent Energetic Mind, they'll regen so fast that running out of that 400 mana isn't an issue. Plus shields. Since their HP isn't THAT terrible and their attack is decent...you have the best characters in the game, period. Compared to Medieval or Robots. A lot of them start with 50 mana, making Double Jump not even an option for them (It isn't anyways for Heavy Robots, but that's beside the point). That's in addition to them not getting the better spells, having an extremely short shield duration, and having trouble sustaining fire. I'm not saying something like "Dexterity Points" or anything needs to be added. But adding the mana reduction to the enchants just cripples low-mana characters more than they already are while giving high-mana characters a subtle, but sizeable, buff. The game was already to the point where Mana is so useful that I never play anything but an Age of Magic character. This change would just seal the deal. After getting the mana reduction, my high-mana character will STILL be able to crank out at least 2-3 Leafy Whips before running out of mana. Even some of the high attack characters can't touch that. |
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Yeah, there needs to be less extreme variance in the base mana stats, I think. |
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You also have to watch the "Midline" characters. What's going to be the point of playing an Industrial/Pre-Industrial character if they have crappy HP and low-enough mana that using a jump enchant would cripple them offensively. |
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Hmm, there seems to be two new issues that this issue brought to light. -The attack stat needs some sort of a buff (either base or how much you get on upgrade, IDK), or at the very least make what it does more visible -The base-stat distribution of the various different types of playable characters/races is a bit lopsided right now, and in particularly bad cases, too much overall for some types and too little overall for some types (like Age of Magic characters have wonderful mana, average HP, and average attack, which sums up to more than almost any other character types has) Should two new issues be created for these? |
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1. I do think a DEX stat would make sense here. Dex could range from 1-9+, and rather than using up DEX, you'd be able to do different things based on how high your DEX is. So a DEX of 4 allows you to use double jump, a DEX of 7 allows you to use triple jump, etc. Low DEX characters could use the more basic leg enchants. Each character gets different DEX, and you upgrade DEX with upgrade stones, thereby competing directly with the other stats. You might also need a high DEX for the stealth enchant. To make RtL competitive, you can ALWAYS use RtL no matter how much DEX you have. 2. Though I really like option 1, if you want to keep the current system, you can change from absolute number reduction to percentage reduction/increase, which isn't as brutal for low mana characters. |
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Sold on DEX. Keeping this though: * The balance of the leg enchants is now intertwined with your max mana, making a wider array of choices more attractive rather than triple jump and double jump just being the always obvious go-to enchants for everyone to use. ** All of the non-jumping legs-related enchants now add to your max mana pool. ** The amount of mana increase is based on the base type of the enchant (what the icon of it is), and does not vary at all with the extra stats that the enchant might have based on its other attributes. ** The specific amounts of mana changes for each base enchant type (again, solely based on the icon) are: *** Power Legs Enchant: +20 mana *** Featherweight Enchant: +20 mana *** Stone Legs Enchant: +30 mana *** Powerslide Enchant: +30 mana |
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OK, then let me suggest a use for attack power as well. Rather than being a percentage, it can be a stat like DEX. And it doesn't affect your attack power at all. Rather, it affects which attack-boosting enchants you can use. This is a little harder to work out, because attack percentage boosts go up as you get better enchants, and each continent is harder so it sort of requires stronger enchants (maybe). But let's say at each continent there's a scale. In continent 1, 10% boost is attack power 1, 20% is 2, etc. To boost your attacks by 70% you'd need attack power 7 Since continents get harder, the scale could slowly move up. Of course all these numbers can be modified, this is just off the top of my head. You could also attach these requirements for projectile speed boosts etc. Anything that amplifies the magic attacks in some way. So now each stat has a usage: attack power determines how much you can boost your spells. If you want to customize your spells and make them awesome(r), you want high attack power. Dex determines how mobile you are. HP is obvious -- how many attacks you can survive, and mana is how advanced your spells are. Each one has its place, and they're all fairly balanced with respect to each other, making every character feel pretty unique. This also gives you a reason to keep weaker enchants, which is something you don't get in an ARPG (enchants are sort of the weapon modifiers from ARPGs). Since you go through many characters in this game, each can only use a certain range of enchants, which in my opinion utilizes the concept of playing as different characters and makes it really cool. |
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I like that except for the Niche Air Enchant giving a negative mana. It should give equal or a bonus, IMO, so that there's an incentive to use it. Who in their right mind will use a Niche Air Enchant if it decreases your mana by 30, when you could have a double or triple jump with no penalty? |
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Nanostrike: that was just a typo on niche air enchant; I had removed that in the game, but not in the text there, thanks for the catch. All the stuff was meant to be positive. |
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Bluddy: in terms of the attack power increases... I'm not sure on that. That would be super tricky to balance, as you say, and I also worry about how that would make characters more generic at the start of the game when nobody has any enchants yet. I'd rather defer on that one until we see how the other works out. Too many changes in one release can kind of muddy things if they aren't related, you know? |
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DEX is a good idea, Bluddy, but my concern is that if it was Upgrade-Stone Powered, then it would lead to people having to use less stones on other resources, which may not be that helpful as it means sacrificing Health/Attack or Mana for a higher jump etc. :/ A work-around would be more upgrade points, like 12? That means an average user would use a 3-3-3-3 formation, then meld it to their own after a while. |
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@MouldyK, I think sacrificing health/attack or mana for jumping is exactly what we want. You can always get RtL as another option. It's possible that now that there are more stats, we'll need a few more upgrade points, but that remains to be seen. |
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Niche Air enchants seem like the big loser here. They're worse than double or triple jump, both in terms of the total height you can jump and the flexibility you have (e. g., you can't use them to break a fall, or jump down and then back up, or repeatedly jump near a flying enemy to get several close-range attacks off). Since they don't give mana either, I can't really see myself ever wanting to use them, except possibly in the odd lava flats/cave where I can't use double or triple jump. Also, I'm doubtful as to whether 30 mana is enough. |
| Date Modified | Username | Field | Change |
|---|---|---|---|
| May 16, 2012 11:23 am | Bluddy | New Issue | |
| May 16, 2012 11:29 am | TechSY730 | Note Added: 0024305 | |
| May 16, 2012 11:30 am | TechSY730 | Note Edited: 0024305 | |
| May 16, 2012 11:35 am | Chris_McElligottPark | Note Added: 0024307 | |
| May 16, 2012 11:37 am | Bluddy | Note Added: 0024308 | |
| May 16, 2012 11:45 am | Bluddy | Note Added: 0024310 | |
| May 16, 2012 11:59 am | Nanostrike | Note Added: 0024312 | |
| May 16, 2012 12:06 pm | Bluddy | Note Added: 0024316 | |
| May 16, 2012 12:11 pm | BenMiff | Note Added: 0024317 | |
| May 16, 2012 12:25 pm | Bluddy | Note Added: 0024319 | |
| May 16, 2012 12:29 pm | tigersfan | Internal Weight | => Feature Suggestion |
| May 16, 2012 12:29 pm | tigersfan | Status | new => considering |
| May 16, 2012 12:33 pm | Bluddy | Note Added: 0024322 | |
| May 16, 2012 12:43 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Note Added: 0024323 | |
| May 16, 2012 12:43 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Status | considering => resolved |
| May 16, 2012 12:43 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Fixed in Version | => 1.021 |
| May 16, 2012 12:43 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Resolution | open => fixed |
| May 16, 2012 12:43 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Assigned To | => Chris_McElligottPark |
| May 16, 2012 12:45 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Note Added: 0024324 | |
| May 16, 2012 1:56 pm | Nanostrike | Note Added: 0024326 | |
| May 16, 2012 2:04 pm | Bluddy | Note Added: 0024327 | |
| May 16, 2012 2:04 pm | TechSY730 | Note Added: 0024328 | |
| May 16, 2012 2:07 pm | TechSY730 | Note Edited: 0024328 | |
| May 16, 2012 2:36 pm | BenMiff | Note Added: 0024329 | |
| May 16, 2012 2:50 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Note Added: 0024330 | |
| May 16, 2012 3:01 pm | Bluddy | Note Added: 0024331 | |
| May 16, 2012 3:08 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Note Added: 0024332 | |
| May 16, 2012 3:23 pm | Nanostrike | Note Added: 0024334 | |
| May 16, 2012 3:24 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Note Added: 0024336 | |
| May 16, 2012 3:25 pm | Nanostrike | Note Edited: 0024334 | |
| May 16, 2012 3:26 pm | Nanostrike | Note Added: 0024337 | |
| May 16, 2012 3:39 pm | TechSY730 | Note Added: 0024343 | |
| May 16, 2012 3:40 pm | TechSY730 | Note Edited: 0024343 | |
| May 16, 2012 4:02 pm | Bluddy | Note Added: 0024344 | |
| May 16, 2012 4:44 pm | Bluddy | Note Edited: 0024344 | |
| May 16, 2012 4:51 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Note Added: 0024350 | |
| May 16, 2012 5:15 pm | Bluddy | Note Added: 0024352 | |
| May 16, 2012 5:51 pm | Nanostrike | Note Added: 0024355 | |
| May 16, 2012 6:26 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Note Edited: 0024350 | |
| May 16, 2012 6:27 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Note Added: 0024357 | |
| May 16, 2012 6:29 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Note Added: 0024358 | |
| May 16, 2012 7:01 pm | MouldyK | Note Added: 0024361 | |
| May 16, 2012 8:12 pm | Bluddy | Note Added: 0024366 | |
| May 17, 2012 4:24 am | lavacamorada | Note Added: 0024375 |
