View Issue Details
| ID | Project | Category | Date Submitted | Last Update | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 0000569 | AI War 1 / Classic | Suggestion - Balance Tweaks | Oct 16, 2010 3:41 am | Oct 18, 2010 10:37 am | |
| Reporter | SNAFU | Assigned To | Chris_McElligottPark | ||
| Severity | tweak | ||||
| Status | resolved | Resolution | fixed | ||
| Product Version | 3.715 | ||||
| Summary | 0000569: AI Artillery Guardians - Too hard? | ||||
| Description | I'm currently at an impasse in my new game due to these. Attached screen shot is of 7 of the smug-looking Mk III variants chilling at max range from the wormhole to my home system. This is the first system I've tried to take (a Mk I system) and as you can see I'm almost an hour in and running with +300% handicap. Just about everything I can reasonably throw at them at this time in the game gets ripped to shreds. Bum rush of 400+ fleet ships, transport raids, starships, you name it :( I eventually managed to coax them into coming into my home system by sending the starships but I consider that a less than ideal solution. I could only imagine how bad (or how long) it would be if I weren't running with the handicap :\ Perhaps at the least their bonus against Polycrystal hulls needs tweaking? Bombers are the most effective solution against them in the standard fleet ship 'triangle', yet these Guardians have a bonus against them. 10 shots x 81,000 dmg each x 4 bonus to Polycrystal seems a bit over the top :p | ||||
| Tags | No tags attached. | ||||
| Internal Weight | |||||
| related to | 0000684 | resolved | Chris_McElligottPark | Still too many guardians |
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I just had four Mk4 versions "show up" and kill my home command station within one minute of them entering the system. All I did to piss them off was attack a Mk4 system with a planetary cloaker (all I killed was the cloaker, losing my entire fleet in the process). They had to travel from that system, through the system I colonized (which was relatively new and died within moments to everything else that came after me), and then to my home system. |
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Like ive said - artillery guardians LOVE giving up their post. I think they need to stop doing that. |
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I dunno, sounds like it's working pretty well for them ;) |
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A little too well. I was barely an hour into my game and nothing can kill them. I was already holding off a beam guardian with 3 Riot Mk2s (because I had no fleet, or very little, which the artillery guardians promptly killed). :| |
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Yea, it does sound like they're a bit too powerful for the early game at least. Seems like there needs to be some readily available ships that kill them more easily. They're supposed to actually be fairly fragile. I don't think they got that memo. |
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Flak guardians I was able to kill (slowly, but without loss) with "anything but fighters." Fighters just died because of their mutual range, everything could just sit outside and blast them. Beam guardians were similarly not too much of an issue, due to their low damage and firing rate (they killed some frigates). Edit: also I was fighting off Mk4 guardians. Someone needs to do something about the "abundance of Mk4 worlds near the starting area." Two of the worlds neighboring me were Mk4 (the one I killed I forgot to check). Of the next two out that I knew of, one was Mk3 the other was Mk4. |
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^^ well then buff the other guardians up to 'WAHH I HATE THEM ALL' status, so not just artillery guardians are annoying. |
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Lance: I'd only accept that solution if they can't use wormholes. They're GUARDIANS not Attack-and-pwn-your-face-ians. |
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I disagree. x4000 and keith have repeatedly said their job is to kill humans. Let them ALL do that, not just artillery ones. |
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I'm not sure of Chris's intent, but I'd imagine the artillery ones would fit into the role of being much easier to kill than the rest, but much more dangerous if left alive. |
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There's nothing wrong with the mark IV worlds near homeworlds -- that's 100% entirely by design, and that hasn't changed since pre-1.0 of AI War. You could be absolutely surrounded two deep by mark IV worlds, and that's entirely valid (but a really unlucky map seed, to be sure). Also, the willingness to leave their posts is not something I'm going to consider changing, either, as that's the whole point of these guys. They are a counter attack force, and it sounds like it's working quite well. However, in thinking about this more, I think that the tech level of the guardians needs to match the tech level of the AI, rather than of the planet. Right now it's just too hard when you run into a high-level planet, moreso than it should be. |
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While it's adding another special case, I would suggest only suppressing the Mk level of the guardians on planets within, say, 3 planets of the human homeworld. Outside that I think it would be good to hit them with the full deal ;) |
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Hmmm... maybe a system like mark IIs after 3 planets out, and mark Vs at the AI homeworlds, and then letting it grow from there as appropriate. Then again, possibly these things just have too dang much health at the moment. Putting them back with 10x lower health, but with having 3 slots per planet instead of 2, might be a good idea. Having the mark levels work differently than now is sounding less and less good; I think the balance just isn't right, yet. |
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* Guardian health is now 5x lower across the board. They do still have their attack buffs from the last release, but now they are much more fragile overall. The goal is to have them be fairly fragile, but at the same time a real counterattack risk (they do a lot of damage) if they slip past you. * The Polycrystal bonus of Artillery Guardians has been swapped out for a Turret bonus. * Flak Guardians, lightning guardians, and tractor guardians all now have a bonus agains turrets. We'll see how this looks in 3.717. |
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May I suggest that Seige starships be capable of damaging guardians? |
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Yep, that was done just moments ago, thanks to Lancefighter suggesting the same. :) |
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BTW, X, what do you mean by "3 slots per planet instead of 2"? Because I'm looking at a Mk1 planet that has: 6 Artillery 29 Beam Guardians 12 Flak 16 Lightning (4 Tachyon) It only has 2 guard posts (C.A. and an MLRS). It also has a Mk3 Fortress. |
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I changed my mind, it's still 2 slots instead of 3. It should only have 2 guardians per guard post, wormhole, and AI command station... |
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Then 126 Guardians for a system is too many than intended. :| (I count 5 guard posts, 5 wormholes, a command station, a spec forces, and a train station) http://i53.tinypic.com/14n0i7o.png |
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Yikes: * Fixed a bug that was previously letting far too many guardians get built. A maximum of 2 guardians per guard post, wormhole, or command station should be in the game. Thanks! |
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You're welcome X. |
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A few points of clarification: 1. There is usually an extra tachyon guardian per wormhole 2. Some wormholes have more than one wormhole guard post at them, which give them more guardians as well as more extra ships: - 1 extra wormhole guard posts per wormhole for the turtle AI types. - 1 extra wormhole guard posts per wormhole for being on diff 8 or higher. - back down to 1 wormhole guard post pr wormhole for the really aggressive types. - 3 extra wormhole guard posts per wormhole for being a home planet. - 1 extra wormhole guard posts per wormhole for the adjacent-to-home planets. So that can play with the numbers some, but not up to 126 or whatever. ;) |
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And not 126 only 2 jumps from the player homeworld. Definitely. |
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The only outstanding thing from this is now in 0000684, so closing this one. |
| Date Modified | Username | Field | Change |
|---|---|---|---|
| Oct 16, 2010 3:41 am | SNAFU | New Issue | |
| Oct 16, 2010 3:41 am | SNAFU | File Added: Screenshot_2010_10_16_02_08_56.png | |
| Oct 16, 2010 3:29 pm | Draco18s | Note Added: 0000972 | |
| Oct 16, 2010 3:31 pm | Lancefighter | Note Added: 0000974 | |
| Oct 16, 2010 3:32 pm | keith.lamothe | Note Added: 0000975 | |
| Oct 16, 2010 3:37 pm | Draco18s | Note Added: 0000976 | |
| Oct 16, 2010 3:38 pm | keith.lamothe | Note Added: 0000977 | |
| Oct 16, 2010 3:42 pm | Draco18s | Note Added: 0000978 | |
| Oct 16, 2010 3:42 pm | Lancefighter | Note Added: 0000979 | |
| Oct 16, 2010 3:44 pm | Draco18s | Note Edited: 0000978 | |
| Oct 16, 2010 3:45 pm | Draco18s | Note Added: 0000980 | |
| Oct 16, 2010 3:46 pm | Lancefighter | Note Added: 0000981 | |
| Oct 16, 2010 4:04 pm | keith.lamothe | Note Added: 0000982 | |
| Oct 16, 2010 4:14 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Note Added: 0000983 | |
| Oct 16, 2010 4:16 pm | keith.lamothe | Note Added: 0000984 | |
| Oct 16, 2010 4:21 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Note Added: 0000985 | |
| Oct 16, 2010 4:31 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Note Added: 0000987 | |
| Oct 16, 2010 4:31 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Assigned To | => Chris_McElligottPark |
| Oct 16, 2010 4:31 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Status | new => feedback |
| Oct 16, 2010 8:47 pm | Draco18s | Note Added: 0001037 | |
| Oct 16, 2010 8:48 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Note Added: 0001038 | |
| Oct 16, 2010 9:18 pm | Draco18s | Note Added: 0001042 | |
| Oct 16, 2010 9:32 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Note Added: 0001043 | |
| Oct 16, 2010 10:00 pm | Draco18s | Note Added: 0001053 | |
| Oct 16, 2010 10:13 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Note Added: 0001056 | |
| Oct 16, 2010 10:28 pm | Draco18s | Note Added: 0001060 | |
| Oct 16, 2010 10:41 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Note Added: 0001062 | |
| Oct 16, 2010 11:46 pm | Draco18s | Note Added: 0001074 | |
| Oct 18, 2010 10:34 am | Chris_McElligottPark | Relationship added | related to 0000684 |
| Oct 18, 2010 10:37 am | Chris_McElligottPark | Note Added: 0001185 | |
| Oct 18, 2010 10:37 am | Chris_McElligottPark | Status | feedback => resolved |
| Oct 18, 2010 10:37 am | Chris_McElligottPark | Resolution | open => fixed |
