View Issue Details
| ID | Project | Category | Date Submitted | Last Update | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 0026719 | AI War 2 | Bug - Gameplay | Mar 13, 2022 3:29 pm | Apr 4, 2022 9:35 pm | |
| Reporter | Ecthelon | Assigned To | Chris_McElligottPark | ||
| Status | resolved | Resolution | fixed | ||
| Product Version | 4.004 Easy There, Hack Response | ||||
| Fixed in Version | 4.011 Multiplayer Stability | ||||
| Summary | 0026719: Spire hammer AI seems to send unusually large waves | ||||
| Description | See attached save. Not sure if this is a bug or a balance issue. Spire hammer AI has been sending 300+ strength waves at AIP 120. Hacking responses and exos have been similarly absurd. Hacking response was interesting because I reloaded and the AI didn't choose any spire ships that attempt, resulting in a much weaker response (1/4 of the strength). My guess would be that the AI is treating its spire ships like they're much weaker than they actually are. | ||||
| Tags | No tags attached. | ||||
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Nope they aren't provided to the AI at cut rates. Actually the AI purchase price of Spire Hammer toys is usually three to six times as much for standard guardian tier stuff. What you are seeing is how the strength system over values combinations of DPS with health. The smaller Spire Hammer ships are on average only two to four times as durable as a comparable guardian and cost much more. To put things in perspective a Plasma Guardian only costs the AI 500 purchase points. A spire frigate costs 1250, and a railgun version of the AI spire frigate costs 1800. The AI version of the spire railgun destroyer costs 3000 or six times as much as a plasma guardian and a royal plasma guardian for the Royal AI only costs 800 to have twice as much health and damage as the standard guardian. Really you'd see a higher level of incoming pain from Royal which pretty much exclusively uses buffed versions of guardians that at higher marks get stupidly durable. Spire Hammer is probably the hardest of the "Hard" AIs but it is pretty easy to take apart considering all its special units are vulnerable to ablative, anti-armor, anti-energy, and anti-high mass weapons. |
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I'm sure there are counters but I don't think this is even close to proportional with other hard AIs difficulty at the same AIP. Strength may well "overvalue" dps and health but whatever way you cut it these wave are just plain nasty. Staying alive long enough to do damage cannot be underestimated. Granted my choice of turrets could be better. I just think that this is worth thinking about. |
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So this seems like actually a discussion over whether Spire Hammer should be Brutal or Hard |
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My $0.02: It's definitely on the border between Brutal and Hard. It's definitely notably easier than stuff like Geneticist and Beast, but I'm not sure I could say the same about Swarmer, it might well be as nasty as that one. So maybe either Hammer is Brutal, or Swarmer is Hard? |
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I support the motion to demote Swarmer to Hard. It was one of only three there at one point, but now there have been so many others added that are properly more painful, I think it would be more fitting down a tier. It would also make Spire Hammer feel less lonely. And lonely Spire simply cannot be countenanced. I'm also not at all certain that I'd favor going up against Special Forces Master as compared to Spire Hammer. For waves absolutely. For having the gall to venture outside my own territory, nope. So FWIW, right now I'm thinking Spire Hammer is near the Hard-Brutal border, but it's not over that line. |
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Swarmer as an AI type has been sad ever since the Carrier Guardians got removed from planet and hack attack waves. This happened about a month after the Shift as new players were complaining that those guardians often were three times stronger than the strength estimate said they were. (Because drones aren't counted in that tooltip.) Basically Swarmer is a brutal AI if it actually dunks the player with a full toolkit that it hasn't had access to for the better part of a year. Similar story with Vicious Raider not being the same after it lost access to Raid Frigates. So yeah Swarmer could do with either being knocked down a tier or get full access to its carrier spam back. |
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Thanks! * After discussion on mantis, two of the AI types have had their difficulty reclassified. Swarmer has been demoted to Hard (they are on the border between Brutal and Hard), and Spire Hammer has been promoted to Brutal (they again are on that same border). ** Nothing is changed with these AI types in their actual function or balance, but it was agreed that these labels represent them better. |
| Date Modified | Username | Field | Change |
|---|---|---|---|
| Mar 13, 2022 3:29 pm | Ecthelon | New Issue | |
| Mar 13, 2022 3:29 pm | Ecthelon | File Added: Manual.save | |
| Mar 13, 2022 9:08 pm | CRCGamer | Note Added: 0065411 | |
| Mar 14, 2022 1:36 pm | Ecthelon | Note Added: 0065416 | |
| Mar 14, 2022 1:41 pm | BadgerBadger | Note Added: 0065417 | |
| Mar 14, 2022 1:42 pm | Ecthelon | Note Edited: 0065416 | |
| Mar 14, 2022 5:16 pm | Lord Of Nothing | Note Added: 0065418 | |
| Mar 14, 2022 7:57 pm | Strategic Sage | Note Added: 0065422 | |
| Mar 14, 2022 8:02 pm | Strategic Sage | Note Edited: 0065422 | |
| Mar 15, 2022 2:19 am | CRCGamer | Note Added: 0065428 | |
| Apr 4, 2022 9:35 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Assigned To | => Chris_McElligottPark |
| Apr 4, 2022 9:35 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Status | new => resolved |
| Apr 4, 2022 9:35 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Resolution | open => fixed |
| Apr 4, 2022 9:35 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Fixed in Version | => 4.006 Careful Of That Federation! |
| Apr 4, 2022 9:35 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Note Added: 0065762 | |
| Apr 4, 2022 9:35 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Fixed in Version | 4.006 Careful Of That Federation! => 4.011 Multiplayer Stability |
