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IDProjectCategoryLast Update
0023387AI War 2Bug - OtherApr 3, 2022 1:55 pm
ReporterArnaudB Assigned ToBadgerBadger  
Status closedResolutionno change required 
Product Version2.096 Space Engineering 
Fixed in Version4.006 Careful Of That Federation! 
Summary0023387: Difficulty 10-10-10 Victory
DescriptionAnd so I join the small ranks of humans commandants who defeated the AI at its cheaty peak.

I used Magedrifter win save as a base (that he threw in the discord yesterday). I had a mod activated due to lack of restart, but since it only adds starting option it had no impact on the game (added here because without it you can't load the save).

There was a lot of savescumming (30-50 times) involved and tight energy problems. I used a generalist and subterfuge focus, rolling back 1hour save to no longer have the superspiders and Turbo raider because 2*40 AIP was too much. The tight tech focus really helped although I would likely have had less problems going concussion. Hive Golem was also a big help on the AI homeworld.

Map was Gridhatch on 40 planets. I do think 40 planets shouldn't count for a "pure" game, the small number of planets is way too advantageous for the player. You can easily find and reach the AIP reducers, and can grab much less territory thus much less AIP. Now granted, Gridhatch is really good for accessibility, but I also think balancing the game around putting the map slider to 40 rather than the default 80 shouldn't make for a pure game when you can't pop beacons after game start.

I won very fast (3h30) though that's significantly more than my diff7 record (29min40s) or even diff9 record (2h23). It did help, oddly enough, since it meant I didn't have to deal with the second CPA or reinforcement build-up. I mention the time because, well, apparently not many people finish games that quickly and it's probably out there for balancing.

It was hard to kill the AI Homeworld, that was my biggest difficulty. I used beachheading around the AI Homeworld and nudged it, to release the guard in wormholes and encourage the praetorian to comes out and play. It took me half an hour but I was able to reduce the strength in the AI Homeworld by 300 and secure a breach-point. At that point I built about 60 spiders and added more turrets to secure my foothold, with the Hive to produce a stream of metal and ships. I tilted the fight by having the luck subverter turrets showing up in a claimed battlestation.
I should mention I lost a GCA for Strikecraft and had to concede ground from the AI attacks outside the AI Homeworld, so it wasn't easy by all mean.

I don't know what else to say. Anything you want to know?
TagsNo tags attached.

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related to 0023398 assignedBadgerBadger The Command Station rebuild timer can be bypassed by scrapping the Command Station. 

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ArnaudB

Jul 12, 2020 3:51 pm

manager  

20200712211616_1.jpg (377,457 bytes)
20200712211618_1.jpg (560,880 bytes)
20200712211620_1.jpg (361,116 bytes)
Fight Second 22 WIN.save (851,328 bytes)
CMP_StartingBattlestationDesigns.xml (15,075 bytes)   
<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?>
<root>
<!-- Designs Rules, are as follow: each starting battlestation has a thematic, each encourages the player to try a specific tactic, they need to be usable both defensively and offensively rather than outrageously good at either, they should avoid having multiple turrets of the same tech-type, they shouldn't have turrets that plain conflict with their purpose even as filler. Each design has three turrets -->

<!-- Turret Cap is: "ship_cap_group" DIVIDED BY 5 in the game. This is a property of the turret units stats : multiplier_to_all_fleet_caps="0.2" It compensates the 5 times cost, health and attack boost of the turrets. This was done in vanilla a while ago to reduce the number of turrets to build, for ease of use and performance.

Made for v.2.008 - by ArnaudB
	  -->
<!--
*Normal size:
name="SubverterTurret" - turn AI into allies - tech
name="MakeshiftTurret" - fast building weak, explodes then releases drones - raid
name="InterceptorTurret" - sniper with bonus vs fast moving - ambush
name="SeekerTurret"	- Long range missiles vs high mass - concu
name="MicroConcussiveMissileTurret"	- missiles spam vs 70-less armor - concu
name="TranslocatorTurret" - generalist pushing away - disruptive
name="JammerTurret"	- jam weapons for 70-less armor - disruptive
name="ImploderTurret" - hit healthier targets harder - fusion
name="FusionTurret"	- Rapid-fire ignore shielding - fusion
name="BlasterTurret" - All-rounder no bonus - generalist
name="CounterSniperTurret" - Long range with bonus vs distant - Subterfuge
name="AblativeTurret" - bonus vs high albedo - Generalist
name="HailstormTurret"	- fire exploding grenades bonus vs thin armour - Splash
name="VampireTurret" - self-healing with low damage - subterfuge
name="ScrapTurret"	- cheap no shield high damage die in 15sec - raid
name="AcidTurret" - increase damage on multiple enemies - Tech
name="HarmonicTurret" - Gain bonus damage the more Harmonic on planet - tech
name="DeathgripTurret" - Tractor turrets with bonus vs caught - Melee
name="ShredderTurret" - Very short range high damage - Melee
name="RuffianTurret" - Cheap and resist sniper fire - Raid
name="BastilleTurret" - Fragile with bonus damage under shield - Ambush
name="BulwarkTurret" - Durable and decoy - Melee

*Large size:
name="CrusherTurret" - attract and kill in aoe - Melee
name="EMPTurret" - MassParalyzer - ambush
name="HoloceneMissileTurret" - Planet-wide slow plasma aoe - concu
name="FuseballTurret" - high-damage shield-bypass - Fusion
name="MiniFortress" - all-around fortress - Generalist
name="BlitzkriegTurret"	- All-rounder with drones upon death- Raid
name="SolarFlareTurret"	- Slow mass paralyze large enemies - Subterfuge
name="GeminiTurret"	- Two weapons vs small and vs large - Tech
-->
  <fleet_design name="Mod_TakeoverDefenses"
        display_name="Takeover Defenses"
        description="A potent mix designed to turn the enemy number against itself. Has slightly less turrets than its kind due to two turrets sharing the same technology."
        design_logic="InitialPlayerBattlestation" weight="100" include_full_cap_of_each_type="true"
        append_each_ship_description_to_main_description="true"
        >
	<ship_membership name="RevealerBattlestation" ship_cap_group="Centerpiece" weight="100" min="1" max="1"/>
	<ship_membership name="AcidTurret" ship_cap_group="Turret" weight="100" min="30" max="30"/>
	<ship_membership name="SubverterTurret" ship_cap_group="Turret" weight="100" min="30" max="30"/>
    <ship_membership name="HailstormTurret" ship_cap_group="Turret" weight="100" min="50" max="50"/>
	<ship_membership name="EMPTurret" ship_cap_group="Turret" weight="100" min="10" max="10"/>
    <ship_membership name="TractorArray" ship_cap_group="OtherDefense" weight="100" min="10" max="10"/>
	<ship_membership name="TachyonArray" ship_cap_group="OtherDefense" weight="100" min="5" max="5"/>
  </fleet_design>

  
  <fleet_design name="Mod_ArtilleryDefenses"
        display_name="Artillery Defenses"
        description="A mix focused on long range without compromise. Expensive and difficult to build under fire as enemy sniper assets will focus on all infinite-range turrets."
        design_logic="InitialPlayerBattlestation" weight="100" include_full_cap_of_each_type="true"
        append_each_ship_description_to_main_description="true"
        >
	<ship_membership name="RevealerBattlestation" ship_cap_group="Centerpiece" weight="100" min="1" max="1"/>
	<ship_membership name="SeekerTurret" ship_cap_group="Turret" weight="100" min="50" max="50"/>
    <ship_membership name="InterceptorTurret" ship_cap_group="Turret" weight="100" min="50" max="50"/>
	<ship_membership name="CounterSniperTurret" ship_cap_group="Turret" weight="100" min="50" max="50"/>
	<ship_membership name="TritiumSniperTurret" ship_cap_group="Turret" weight="100" min="50" max="50"/>
    <ship_membership name="TractorArray" ship_cap_group="OtherDefense" weight="100" min="10" max="10"/>
	<ship_membership name="TachyonArray" ship_cap_group="OtherDefense" weight="100" min="5" max="5"/>
  </fleet_design>
  
  <fleet_design name="Mod_RaidDefenses"
        display_name="Pirate Defenses"
        description="A mono-tech mix of cheap turrets to bring around everywhere."
        design_logic="InitialPlayerBattlestation" weight="100" include_full_cap_of_each_type="true"
        append_each_ship_description_to_main_description="true"
        >
	<ship_membership name="ShieldwallBattlestation" ship_cap_group="Centerpiece" weight="100" min="1" max="1"/>
    <ship_membership name="MakeshiftTurret" ship_cap_group="Turret" weight="100" min="60" max="60"/>
    <ship_membership name="ScrapTurret" ship_cap_group="Turret" weight="100" min="60" max="60"/>
	<ship_membership name="RuffianTurret" ship_cap_group="Turret" weight="100" min="60" max="60"/>
	<ship_membership name="BlitzkriegTurret" ship_cap_group="Turret" weight="100" min="12" max="12"/>
    <ship_membership name="TractorArray" ship_cap_group="OtherDefense" weight="100" min="10" max="10"/>
	<ship_membership name="TachyonArray" ship_cap_group="OtherDefense" weight="100" min="5" max="5"/>
  </fleet_design>
  
  <fleet_design name="Mod_ShieldtoyDefenses"
        display_name="Shieldtoy Defenses"
        description="A mix playing with shields and forcefield to tactically deal extremely high damage. Has slightly less turrets than its kind due to two turrets sharing the same technology."
        design_logic="InitialPlayerBattlestation" weight="100" include_full_cap_of_each_type="true"
        append_each_ship_description_to_main_description="true"
        >
	<ship_membership name="ShieldwallBattlestation" ship_cap_group="Centerpiece" weight="100" min="1" max="1"/>
	<ship_membership name="PlasmaTurret" ship_cap_group="Turret" weight="100" min="8" max="8"/>
	<ship_membership name="ImploderTurret" ship_cap_group="Turret" weight="100" min="40" max="40"/>
    <ship_membership name="BastilleTurret" ship_cap_group="Turret" weight="100" min="50" max="50"/>
	<ship_membership name="JammerTurret" ship_cap_group="Turret" weight="100" min="50" max="50"/>
    <ship_membership name="TractorArray" ship_cap_group="OtherDefense" weight="100" min="10" max="10"/>
	<ship_membership name="TachyonArray" ship_cap_group="OtherDefense" weight="100" min="5" max="5"/>
  </fleet_design>

  <fleet_design name="Mod_OverkillDefenses"
        display_name="Overkill Defenses"
        description="An exclusive focus on large turrets with a battlestation specialized in getting them up and running."
        design_logic="InitialPlayerBattlestation" weight="100" include_full_cap_of_each_type="true"
        append_each_ship_description_to_main_description="true"
        >
	<ship_membership name="EngineeringBattlestation" ship_cap_group="Centerpiece" weight="100" min="1" max="1"/>
	<ship_membership name="CrusherTurret" ship_cap_group="Turret" weight="100" min="10" max="10"/>
	<ship_membership name="MiniFortress" ship_cap_group="Turret" weight="100" min="10" max="10"/>
	<ship_membership name="SolarFlareTurret" ship_cap_group="Turret" weight="100" min="10" max="10"/>
	<ship_membership name="GeminiTurret" ship_cap_group="Turret" weight="100" min="10" max="10"/>
    <ship_membership name="TractorArray" ship_cap_group="OtherDefense" weight="100" min="10" max="10"/>
	<ship_membership name="TachyonArray" ship_cap_group="OtherDefense" weight="100" min="5" max="5"/>
  </fleet_design>
  
  <fleet_design name="Mod_HarmonyDefenses"
        display_name="Harmonic Defenses"
        description="A mono-turret pick taking advantage of the unique mechanics of its turret. Guaranteed local domination once enough turrets are built. Not nearly as good when economical constraints limit numbers."
        design_logic="InitialPlayerBattlestation" weight="100" include_full_cap_of_each_type="true"
        append_each_ship_description_to_main_description="true"
        >
	<ship_membership name="RevealerBattlestation" ship_cap_group="Centerpiece" weight="100" min="1" max="1"/>
	<ship_membership name="HarmonicTurret" ship_cap_group="Turret" weight="100" min="200" max="200"/>
    <ship_membership name="TractorArray" ship_cap_group="OtherDefense" weight="100" min="10" max="10"/>
	<ship_membership name="TachyonArray" ship_cap_group="OtherDefense" weight="100" min="5" max="5"/>
  </fleet_design>
  
  <!--
  <fleet_design name="Mod_ShieldStartingDefenses" is_partial_record="false"
        display_name="Shield (adjusted) Defenses"
        description="Start with an extra forcefield on your home planet, and some very powerful turrets in small quantities.  Also snipers.
		
Adjusted to actually give supplementary forcefields on top of its innate forcefield. Pound the enemy into the ground from behind cover piece by piece, if not necessarily quickly. The ultimate in defence."
        design_logic="InitialPlayerBattlestation" weight="100" include_full_cap_of_each_type="true"
        append_each_ship_description_to_main_description="true"
        >
    <ship_membership name="ShieldwallBattlestation" ship_cap_group="Centerpiece" weight="100" min="1" max="1"/>
    <ship_membership name="PlasmaTurret" ship_cap_group="Turret" weight="100" min="10" max="10"/>
    <ship_membership name="TritiumSniperTurret" ship_cap_group="Turret" weight="100" min="50" max="50"/>
	<ship_membership name="ForcefieldGenerator" ship_cap_group="OtherDefense" weight="100" min="2" max="2"/>
    <ship_membership name="TractorArray" ship_cap_group="OtherDefense" weight="100" min="7" max="7"/>
	<ship_membership name="TachyonArray" ship_cap_group="OtherDefense" weight="100" min="5" max="5"/>
  </fleet_design>

  
  <fleet_design name="Mod_EclecticStartingDefenses" is_partial_record="false"
        display_name="Eclectic (Adjusted) Defenses"
        description="Wow this is all over the place.  Engineering boosts, some regular turrets, minefields, extra tractor beams, and some mobile sentry frigates.  Be prepared for anything!
		
Adjusted to be all over the place in a more refined manner. Has a few engineers to help building a few powerful turrets and some minefield meant for stalling. With sentry frigates for company this design is best used on the offensive."
        design_logic="InitialPlayerBattlestation" weight="100" include_full_cap_of_each_type="true"
        append_each_ship_description_to_main_description="true"
        >
    <ship_membership name="EngineeringBattlestation" ship_cap_group="Centerpiece" weight="100" min="1" max="1"/>
	<ship_membership name="CombatEngineer" ship_cap_group="Strike" weight="100" min="10" max="10"/>
	<ship_membership name="PlasmaTurret" ship_cap_group="Turret" weight="100" min="10" max="10"/>
	<ship_membership name="BeamCannon" ship_cap_group="Turret" weight="100" min="10" max="10"/>
	<ship_membership name="ParalysisMinefield" ship_cap_group="OtherDefense" weight="100" min="24" max="24"/>
    <ship_membership name="TractorArray" ship_cap_group="OtherDefense" weight="100" min="10" max="10"/>
    <ship_membership name="SentryFrigate" ship_cap_group="OtherDefense" weight="100" min="2" max="2"/>
  </fleet_design>



  <fleet_design name="Mod_MinelayerStartingDefenses" is_partial_record="false"
        display_name="Minelayer (adjusted) Defenses"
        description="Large numbers of all the kinds of minefields, plus area-of-effect type turrets, for when you really want to booby-trap the heck out of your homeworld.
		
Adjusted to focus on damage potential with mines, making it easier to use and move around. Anti-energivore turrets serves to deal with high-threats targets that bypass mines. A small group of spider turrets finishes rounding out this quirky mix. Drag enemies into mines with this tractor-armed station."
        design_logic="InitialPlayerBattlestation" weight="100" include_full_cap_of_each_type="true"
        append_each_ship_description_to_main_description="true"
        >
    <ship_membership name="EnsnarerBattlestation" ship_cap_group="Centerpiece" weight="100" min="1" max="1"/>
	<ship_membership name="NucleophilicTurret" ship_cap_group="Turret" weight="100" min="50" max="50"/>
	<ship_membership name="SpiderTurret" ship_cap_group="Turret" weight="100" min="20" max="20"/>
    <ship_membership name="Minefield" ship_cap_group="OtherDefense" weight="100" min="24" max="24"/>
    <ship_membership name="AreaMinefield" ship_cap_group="OtherDefense" weight="100" min="24" max="24"/>
	<ship_membership name="TachyonArray" ship_cap_group="OtherDefense" weight="100" min="5" max="5"/>
  </fleet_design>
  
Not actually modified on account of serving as the basis for adjusting the others fleets.
  <fleet_design name="Mod_WebbedStartingDefenses" is_partial_record="false"
        display_name="Webbed Defenses"
        description="This mix is great against cloaking ships, ships with weak engines, groups of small ships, and ships with high energy operation costs.
		
Not adjusted yet as this serves as the comparison basis to make others station useful. Still remains a very versatile mix able to deal with all kinds of threats."
        design_logic="InitialPlayerBattlestation" weight="100" include_full_cap_of_each_type="true"
        append_each_ship_description_to_main_description="true"
        >
    <ship_membership name="RevealerBattlestation" ship_cap_group="Centerpiece" weight="100" min="1" max="1"/>
    <ship_membership name="SpiderTurret" ship_cap_group="Turret" weight="100" min="50" max="50"/>
    <ship_membership name="MLRSTurret" ship_cap_group="Turret" weight="100" min="50" max="50"/>
    <ship_membership name="NucleophilicTurret" ship_cap_group="Turret" weight="100" min="50" max="50"/>
    <ship_membership name="TractorArray" ship_cap_group="OtherDefense" weight="100" min="7" max="7"/>
	<ship_membership name="TachyonArray" ship_cap_group="OtherDefense" weight="100" min="5" max="5"/>
  </fleet_design>
 -->
</root>
CMP_StartingFleetDesigns.xml (6,216 bytes)   
<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?>
<root>
<!-- A combination of starting options for fleets. These do not override existing fleets but are additions.
The design philosophy for most is meant to reflect vanilla fleets: 
*Starting fleets have a theme or playstyle for the player to try out. 
*they have no more and no less than four ship-lines.
*All shiplines start with max cap, with one exception.
*Ships should avoid sharing tech-type. 
-If this isn't the case, due to lack of alternative or for thematic reasons, the second shipline will have its cap at the minimum value.
-Frigates can NEVER share a tech-type.
*Starting fleets have a clear weakness

Note: Lone Fleet starts are meant more for fun and testing purposes than regular play. Were the option to exist the clearly named "Cheat Fleet" (Botnet start) would disable achievements when chosen. If you don't want the option, just delete it in the XML or comment it out.
Canevas: This mod was first and foremost made for my own enjoyment. I will accept constructive criticism and suggestion that would make the fleets more interesting to play or less cheesy. I will not take demeaning comments.
Made for v.1313 (beta branch) - by ArnaudB
 -->
  <fleet_design name="EliteStartingFleet"
        display_name="Elite Fleet"
        description="An uniquely expensive and powerful strike force filled with few but powerful ships. Fast to respond. Hard to kill. Slow to kill high-values targets."
        design_logic="InitialPlayerFleet" weight="100" include_full_cap_of_each_type="true"
        append_each_ship_description_to_main_description="true"
        >
    <ship_membership name="TransportFlagship_Agile" ship_cap_group="Centerpiece" weight="100" min="1" max="1"/>
	<ship_membership name="Devestator" ship_cap_group="Frigate" weight="100" min="2" max="2"/>
	<ship_membership name="Ramifier" ship_cap_group="Frigate" weight="100" min="2" max="2"/>
	<ship_membership name="Suppressor" ship_cap_group="Frigate" weight="100" min="4" max="4"/>
	<ship_membership name="IonDisruptor" ship_cap_group="Frigate" weight="100" min="2" max="2"/>
  </fleet_design>
  
  
  
  <fleet_design name="StalkingStartingFleet" 
        display_name="Kamikaze Fleet"
        description="A fragile and suicidal group with an overwhelming opening salvo. It can easily kill high-values targets and die just as easily."
        design_logic="InitialPlayerFleet" weight="100" include_full_cap_of_each_type="true"
        append_each_ship_description_to_main_description="true"
        >
    <ship_membership name="TransportFlagship_Cloaked" ship_cap_group="Centerpiece" weight="100" min="1" max="1"/>
    <ship_membership name="AutoBomb" ship_cap_group="Strike" weight="100" min="25" max="25"/>
	<ship_membership name="Porcupine" ship_cap_group="Strike" weight="100" min="40" max="40"/>
    <ship_membership name="Ram" ship_cap_group="Strike" weight="100" min="15" max="15"/>
	<ship_membership name="SiegeFrigate" ship_cap_group="Frigate" weight="100" min="2" max="2"/>
  </fleet_design>

  
  
  <fleet_design name="HydraStartingFleet"
        display_name="Epidemic Fleet"
        description="Seek the biggest battles and grow stronger from the jaws of defeat. Not nearly as good when all is well."
        design_logic="InitialPlayerFleet" weight="100" include_full_cap_of_each_type="true"
        append_each_ship_description_to_main_description="true"
        >
    <ship_membership name="TransportFlagship_Starter" ship_cap_group="Centerpiece" weight="100" min="1" max="1"/>
    <ship_membership name="VanguardHydra" ship_cap_group="Strike" weight="100" min="20" max="20"/>
	<ship_membership name="StingrayHydra" ship_cap_group="Strike" weight="100" min="60" max="60"/>
	<ship_membership name="ParasiteHydra" ship_cap_group="Strike" weight="100" min="15" max="15"/>
    <ship_membership name="WarbirdFrigateHydra" ship_cap_group="Frigate" weight="100" min="2" max="2"/>
  </fleet_design>



<fleet_design name="InterdictionStartingFleet"
        display_name="Interdiction Fleet"
        description="A force meant to keep enemy ships in place and give them a pounding that they won't remember. Preferably due to death rather than a failure to hurt them."
        design_logic="InitialPlayerFleet" weight="100" include_full_cap_of_each_type="true"
        append_each_ship_description_to_main_description="true"
        >
    <ship_membership name="TransportFlagship_Starter" ship_cap_group="Centerpiece" weight="100" min="1" max="1"/>
    <ship_membership name="Zapper" ship_cap_group="Strike" weight="100" min="25" max="25"/>
	<ship_membership name="Nanoswarm" ship_cap_group="Strike" weight="100" min="25" max="25"/>
	<ship_membership name="Spider" ship_cap_group="Strike" weight="100" min="40" max="40"/>
	<ship_membership name="Raider" ship_cap_group="Strike" weight="100" min="40" max="40"/>
  </fleet_design>

<!-- Unfortunately doesn't work.
  <fleet_design name="SpireStartingFleet"
        display_name="Broken Spire Fleet"
        description="An initially powerful fleet of sort-of repaired spire ships. Frigates cannot be replaced without a Spire Shipyard. Cannot Mark up."
        design_logic="InitialPlayerFleet" weight="100" include_full_cap_of_each_type="true"
        append_each_ship_description_to_main_description="true"
        >
    <ship_membership name="SpireCruiserFlagship" ship_cap_group="Centerpiece" weight="100" min="1" max="1" />
	<ship_membership name="SpireFrigate" ship_cap_group="Strike" weight="100" min="12" max="12" />
  </fleet_design>
  -->

  <fleet_design name="BotnetStartingFleet"
        display_name="Cheat Fleet"
        description="A Botnet with all the parasitic power and zero ability to kill guard posts. Purely for (stupidity) fun.
		This is considered a cheat. If the option existed it would disable achievement when chosen."
        design_logic="InitialPlayerFleet" weight="100" include_full_cap_of_each_type="true"
        append_each_ship_description_to_main_description="true"
        >
    <ship_membership name="BotnetGolem" ship_cap_group="Centerpiece" weight="100" min="1" max="1"/>
  </fleet_design>

</root>
CMP_StartingFleetDesigns.xml (6,216 bytes)   

BadgerBadger

Jul 14, 2020 1:37 am

manager   ~0057580

Last edited: Jul 14, 2020 1:37 am

Did you take Major Data Centers? If so, perhaps an interesting way to make things harder might be to give the AI hunter more ships against Major Data Centers.

ArnaudB

Jul 14, 2020 2:45 pm

manager   ~0057586

A bit late to answer, but apparently the mantis mail went to spam.

Yes I did take at least one MDC. (I don't think I took the second). It didn't meet much attacks, probably because I had my econs exposed all game and my MDC was military-held.

Chris_McElligottPark

Jul 14, 2020 3:01 pm

administrator   ~0057589

It seems like you had an extremely tense game with a ton of going back to old saves and really managing your forces incredibly well. From your description alone, this is maybe the first case of a diff 10 difficulty win in either game where I've looked at it and thought "well, that seems fair."

Generally the reports were something along the lines of "so I figured out this one weird trick that doctors hate and it let me win [easily or still with difficulty]." It sounds like you were just firing on all cylinders all over the map, and this was kind of a lightning in a bottle win.

But that is just going by your description, which is mostly talking about how hard things were and how you had to go back and redo lots of things to make it possible to win at all. I hear those sort of things, and it makes me happy.

I guess what your description might be leaving out are things that I can't really infer, like "I was wide open in X situation, but the AI never exploited it." If you have any saves from during the middle of the game, or even near the end, where you've got some sort of opening that the AI could capitalize on, then that would be useful.

You did mention that your econs were exposed all game, in your last comment, and that makes my eyebrows raise. Were they getting smacked around over and over again, or was it something that you were able to defend appropriately the whole time, or did the AI just not bother with them because it was too busy doing something else?

I can think of certain responses I would be inclined towards based on the answer to that bit, but a lot of them would be the sort of thing that people would likely savescum to avoid: basically, on the highest difficulties, giving a bit of a penalty to losing a planet. Since you can just rebuild infinitely, essentially, if the AI's minor victories ultimately don't give it any leg up, it can't grind you down properly.

But that's just kind of my first thought. This is overall a bit of a stumper.

Chris_McElligottPark

Jul 14, 2020 3:01 pm

administrator   ~0057590

(Congrats, by the way.) :)

BadgerBadger

Jul 14, 2020 4:55 pm

manager   ~0057599

Yeah, if you have a save game with both a decent sized hunter fleet for the AI and some poorly defended Economic worlds that the hunter could get to, I'd love a save game.

ArnaudB

Jul 15, 2020 4:08 am

manager   ~0057605

I'll hunt my savefiles. I keep a number of saves thorough the game so I most certainly have saves that will satisfy you.

It's less that I was wide open and more that I deliberately left my econs exposed to provoke the AI into attacking. I had to constantly shift my guard fleet plus minefield battlestations, scrapping and building mines over where waves were coming, and sometimes straight up switch my econ into a military for the damage boost. Later on I even added the Crusher officer fleet, which I stripped from ships to turn into a lone fleet. It was handy in defenses though it got crippled multiple times.

The AI did get me a few times, such as my closest GCA which I had to turn into a logistical rather than military due to energy problems. I had to load back about 2 minutes to shift forces (because the AI was also fighting me near the AI Homeworld, in my double econ, and also at my Major Data Center). I had to transport back my main fleet and scrap ships from the offensive battlestation to get enough energy to turn the logistical into a military anew and wipe out the offenders.

There was a lot of back and forth, but one reason I won was because: savescum is overpowered precisely because it deny the AI any long-term gain from its attacks, and two because I heavily baited it to prevent build up that would have forced me to use my Webbed+ other battlestation on defense.

ArnaudB

Jul 15, 2020 9:38 am

manager   ~0057609

Here I gathered a list of twelve useful saves and commentary on them.
AAR_Difficulty10_ArnaudB.rar (4,715,270 bytes)
Difficulty10Commentary.txt (8,242 bytes)   
*AAR1 at 55min is where I reloaded back an hour. Taking Fleet research hadn't worked out, and afterward I instead went for the Zenith energy with a GCA and battlestation in a single planet. It's a pretty represenative save with my offense force clearly having wrapped up a planet (with turrets built) and readying for the next march, an attack on my econ from hunter that came after a wave that wiped out the mines.
*AAR2 at 1h23 is a stable situation where I quickly picked up from the AAR1 and grabbed multiple important planets. It's a time of slowing down though, as afterward it took till 1h50m before another planet was taken (apparently the second MDC). I still never got to max metal at that point, despite a robust economy and a zenith matter generator. This is explained by the building of many turrets (notably spiders) on the military held planets. 48*30k in just spider turrets for 3 planets was a major metal investment, plus clearing Mark 3 planets for MDC and hacks nearby (of ARS).
*AAR3 at 1h50 indicates a major shift with a second MDC taken and the AI going up in mark. A 64 strength wave is coming to Taroa and you can see the process of preparing for the wave, with force 4 moving into position and mines being shifted to the wormhole with Dismal Minelayer battlestation. Notice that huffman remained a logistical rather than econ even after GCA was hacked there. Indeed, doing so kept the AI focused on my two econs, which made swapping force 4 easier.
*AAR4 at 2h9m with the GCA hitting in twenty seconds for 273 strength. This moment was pivotal since, as can be seen on the recently taken planet, I just acquired a Hive Golem that is still building its drones. As I was low on metal this thrust me into the defensive for a while, but at the same time I was perfectly prepared to defend against the GCAs: all defences built, a shiny Hive Golem to secure any front, my main fleet free to move everywhere and enough science to respond to crisis. Energy was somewhat tight, but by scrapping all turrets from the nervous guard I could free 170k energy which put me above the 500k needed to avoid a brownout if a station died or needed swapping. By this point, the AI is in serious troubles.
*AAR5 at 2h20 with the threat back to pre-GCA level, a mere eleven minutes later. I do remember some heavy attacks on lazowska that proved the AI downfall. The mass of Spider turrets that prevent the threat from fleeing and dividing itself in multiple attacks across my planets proved a bad decision for the AI. Even the warden fleet got slaughtered, as it chose to meet my forces between Tichy and Vostea, nicely tucked between my planets and their factories and safe-repairing spaces. The dominance is so blatant that you can see my metal reserves going up and my main transported fleet 1 planet away from the instigator and ready to kill it before the instigator triggered once. The Hive Mark 4 helped, certainly.
*AAR6 at 2h52 with enormous progress having been made. In the south MeersTens has been taken at around 2h35, giving me both the Augmenter for turrets (an enormous damage and defensive boost) on top of a Generalist vault (maxing the tech) and a fleet with a few ships. In the North Makassar was taken for a nearly as important boots with the Strikecraft augmenter, with a minor GCA and a disruptive vault that I don't think got ever hacked. Vostea was taken due to the rising energy constraints first, and secondly to boost the movespeed between my main axis and Lazowska and AI-held Ix. A 98 Strength wave is about to hit the planet and you can unload the Hive Golem or just let it die against both my defences and Force One "Act Sissy" ready to wipe out the 0.3 and 0.7 albedo ships with a tons of Ablative Gatling and Spider Turrets Mark VII. As an aside, taking both north planets blocked the Warden and threat from passing north, giving me addtional security.
*AAR7 at 3h9 show the setup for the AI homeworld assault. The 400 strength planet of Neumann was cleared since 3h1m and Levin 551 strength fell within apparently seven minutes. The Hunter fleet is attacking back but that's what I want, to encourage the AI to move forces away from the homeworld, while having cleared neighbors let me drop some spider and tractor turrets to catch the leaving armies in a trap. There I can thin out the threat before it can truly hurt me in the rest of the galaxy. Some leaks, but not enough.
*AAR8 at 3h21 has the battles truly happening. The AI threat remains low due to heavy shifting of AI forces into guards near my homeworld, as those planets were depleted of AI ships. Near the AI Homeworld however, the provoked guards of Core Guard Posts are lashing out. However as you can see they are caught in the trap, barraged and locked in place by turrets with my forces ready to pounce on them and my metal remains sky-high. The AI Homeworld has lost near 400 Strength by this point.
*AAR9 at 3h27 marks the second step of weakening the AI Homeworld. More Guard posts have been drained from their guards and the threat trying take a safe path through Levin ends up in Vostea, which unfortunately for them has just been turned into a military station to face the threat. My metal is maxed out and my forces are waiting, deliberately waiting for the threat to drain from the AI Homeworld rather than risk having them retreat inside the AI planet. The Homeworld strength has done down again, losing in total another 100 strength.
*AAR10 at 3h30 for the final showndown. With my metal sky-high my forces went a full breach, taking advantage of the time needed before the Praetorian and Warden come back to set up the beachhead. over 55 spider turrets Mark VII are up by the time the fight seems to turn in my disfavor, 15 more coming up bringing me to a nasty total of 71. My Hive Golem sends its drones to soak up the initial blasts of the AI, reducing the climb of counter-attack as they do not count toward it. Meanwhile my main fleet play back and forth with the AI forces, ignoring the Guard Posts in favor of pushing back and paralyzing the incomers so that the beach can grow. Outside this violent battlefield, an AI Hive Golem has appeared and is coming to join the fight at the Homeworld, while Helicon is under attack by another powerful wave. The turrets on Ix are dying, but they're holding over 100 strength worth of AI units away from the only battlefield that matters, metal well spent.
*AAR11 at 3h32 is an intense moment where things seems to be headed a terrible way. The AI Hive Golem has joined the fray and the AI strength isn't wavering. All the threat from nearby planets has joined the fight, accounting for why the AI strength hasn't really gone lower. Metal remained unchanged but things look dicey... almost. Almost. Unpause and the 15 subverter turrets open fire, the zombie slowly but unwaveringly growing into a buffer that kill any hope of the AI reaching the spider Backline. The Hive Golem tries to flee so that its drones may continue the fight, but Force One is already ordered to kill it and despite its best effort, it dies a mere two seconds away from the Wormholes. With its death, all the drones vanish and the subverted hordes becomes unstoppable. The AI tries to drain hunter ship away from the planet to Levin, likely guessing things aren't going its way, but even those ships are getting overwhelmed.
*AAR12 At 3h36 where the AI is losing the strength battle with 80 strength worth of zombies on top of the 400 of the humans. The Guard Cores are dying with only three remaining, the counter-attack remains stalled at a surprisingly low 284. Blood is in the water.
*AAR13 At 3h37 there is only a meager 14 strength of the AI left. 38 Nucleophilic turrets are built and ready to catch the second phase of the Overlord in its final struggle, the 600 Ablative Gatling with bonus damage against the Phase 2 are here to ensure it won't get away. Soon the Overlord dies. Immediately, I built a military command station outside its fight range, behind my Nucleophilic, and I upgrade it thrice. Everything on the planet gain double damage and it can only stop that if it's willing to run into my killbox of Nucleo. Before the clock reach 3h39m, it's death. Humans have won!
Difficulty10Commentary.txt (8,242 bytes)   

ParadoxSong

Jul 15, 2020 10:19 am

reporter   ~0057610

Just chiming in here, but they very fact you were able to bait a 10-10-10 AI into wasting its forces sounds like what should be fixed, if a 10-10-10 AI win is possible, IMO, it shouldn't be with a formula others can follow.

ArnaudB

Jul 15, 2020 10:24 am

manager   ~0057611

Yet the AI was changed so it released ships away from the Homeworld, rather than end up stacking all its forces at the Homeworld.

It worked like you're thinking before, but it was considered problematic. Also note, you do have to survive the leaks of Mark VII forces. I spent a significant amount of time setting up the worlds near the AI Homeworld precisely in order to thin them out.

The current way the AI work is pretty good actually. They come back to the AI Homeworld quickly to defend it once I attacked it in force. That's why even after several minutes of battles it only went from 800 strength to 700+ strength.

One HUGE reason why I won is also because I learned to play very, very fast. Most others Diff10 and even games in general takes five to ten hours to complete. I manage to complete my game in thirty minutes (record in diff7) to 2h30-3h0 for a diff9. Playing that fast means the AI doesn't get nearly as much reinforcement on its planets. It, however, cannot be expected from most players because we don't want frustrated players unable to take the AI Homeworld no matter what they do.

BadgerBadger

Jul 15, 2020 11:18 am

manager   ~0057614

When you talk about baiting the AI forces in, that's hunter fleet, right? If so, a logical things would be to make the hunter more paranoid about distant player ships. How far away were you able to keep your guard fleet from the planets you were baiting?

ArnaudB

Jul 15, 2020 11:39 am

manager   ~0057615

It's tricky to tell, given the unique makeup of Grid-Crosshatch. I withdrew from 1-3 planets away in most cases, with logistical on the path to quickly respond. I do notice that if you have too many turrets, they don't take the bait.

Whether or not there is a warden base impact things too. It takes much longer for the warden to decide to leave though.

Most of the baited ships do belong to the hunter fleet, once Guard Post releases their contents and they go on the offensive. I also took and waited out at least three counterattacks from the AI Homeworld, then waited for it to time out. Letting it build up is deadly.

Chris_McElligottPark

Jul 15, 2020 12:11 pm

administrator   ~0057616

The tricky thing about a more paranoid hunter is that then players can basically do the opposite of baiting:

They can leave a central very strong force of ships on a planet, and the hunter then won't bother any of the adjacent planets to their strong force. That basically makes it impossible for the hunter to ever find a way in to clusters of planets, if we're not careful.

I'd suggest perhaps the hunter should retreat more readily if overwhelming force is arriving, or something like that. But leaving yourself exposed to bait them in seems like something that should legitimately result in mutual broken noses as they scarper off. Hopefully they snipe something important and get out as the cavalry is arriving. That's pretty much going to be a mirror of what an aggressive human player would do.

One of the problems, I feel, us that anything they might snipe is kind of inconsequential. Maybe something like a 10 minute wait before a command station can be rebuilt if it is destroyed? That's something you'd definitely feel, and a savescum wouldn't really help that since any baiting where you can kill substantial numbers of them would probably also require a trade like that.

Just thinking out loud.

BadgerBadger

Jul 15, 2020 12:13 pm

manager   ~0057617

Last edited: Jul 15, 2020 12:31 pm

I don't think hunter fleet incorporates data about remote ships when deciding to attack. There's logic to support doing so, but I don't think it's currently active. The goal would be to make "baiting the hunter" a much harder proposition.

If the player decides to leave a powerful force at the center of its planets to that dissuades the Hunter from attacking then ... that might be fine, actually? If the player wants to leave a ton of forces at home, then either A. the player is just turtling, which means the AI is going to bide its time and strike when the player moves out (or just wait for the next CPA. Other cool idea: turtle detection: if the player turtles for too long then the hunter gets bonus ships) or B. the player is much stronger than the AI, and should probably play on a higher difficulty.

Another possibility might be to tell the Hunter "Don't send so many ships in; if the player has a weak target, just send a few units".

I do kinda like the notion of tying "Time before you can rebuild a command station" to AI difficulty. That way it can just be a minor inconvenience to lower level players, but a problem to work around at higher levels.

RocketAssistedPuffin

Jul 15, 2020 12:31 pm

reporter   ~0057618

Threatfleet in Classic has such behavior, checking multiple hops out for this specific player strategy.

The Hunter did here as well long ago. I recall investigating it a good while before the Fleet update, attempting to diagnose its very cowardly behavior at the time, among the other issues it had which I forget.

Chris_McElligottPark

Jul 15, 2020 12:33 pm

administrator   ~0057619

I'm thinking that the AI should pick at the edges of a turtle in the theoretical example we're talking about. The AI and the player being able to exist in kind of a stalemate that is so cost-free to the player is something I'd like to avoid, but I don't have super strong feelings at the end of the day.

The "time before rebuilding a command station" being difficulty-dependent is something I'm a fan of, too.

Chris_McElligottPark

Jul 15, 2020 12:34 pm

administrator   ~0057620

Was that logic maybe discarded when we moved to fireteams?

BadgerBadger

Jul 15, 2020 12:48 pm

manager   ~0057621

The logic to include data about distant ships for Fireteams is just not active for the hunter fleet. It's an opt-in check, and the hunter isn't opting in.

BadgerBadger

Jul 15, 2020 12:50 pm

manager   ~0057622

So I'm thinking the right changes are two-fold.

First, give the hunter the ability to check distant forces (especially distant forces that are "On the way toward me". Ideally the hunter fleet could be made smart enough to run before your ships actually arrive, depending on their relative strengths of course.

Second, AI-difficulty dependent timers for rebuilding a player's command station, so it feels like there's a real penalty for losing a command station.

Chris_McElligottPark

Jul 15, 2020 2:47 pm

administrator   ~0057623

That sounds smart to me.

ArnaudB

Jul 15, 2020 2:51 pm

manager   ~0057624

One important note since we're talking about Hunter Fleet. In the setup I used from Magedrifter, Hunter Fleet is set to Kamikaze.

BadgerBadger

Apr 3, 2022 1:55 pm

manager   ~0065699

This ticket predates Humanity Ascendant/Expert/Challenger/etc...

Issue History

Date Modified Username Field Change
Jul 12, 2020 3:51 pm ArnaudB New Issue
Jul 12, 2020 3:51 pm ArnaudB File Added: 20200712211616_1.jpg
Jul 12, 2020 3:51 pm ArnaudB File Added: 20200712211618_1.jpg
Jul 12, 2020 3:51 pm ArnaudB File Added: 20200712211620_1.jpg
Jul 12, 2020 3:51 pm ArnaudB File Added: Fight Second 22 WIN.save
Jul 12, 2020 3:51 pm ArnaudB File Added: CMP_StartingBattlestationDesigns.xml
Jul 12, 2020 3:51 pm ArnaudB File Added: CMP_StartingFleetDesigns.xml
Jul 12, 2020 3:51 pm ArnaudB File Added: diff10_win_Magedrifter.save
Jul 14, 2020 1:37 am BadgerBadger Note Added: 0057580
Jul 14, 2020 1:37 am BadgerBadger Note Edited: 0057580
Jul 14, 2020 1:37 am BadgerBadger Note Edited: 0057580
Jul 14, 2020 2:45 pm ArnaudB Note Added: 0057586
Jul 14, 2020 3:01 pm Chris_McElligottPark Note Added: 0057589
Jul 14, 2020 3:01 pm Chris_McElligottPark Assigned To => Chris_McElligottPark
Jul 14, 2020 3:01 pm Chris_McElligottPark Status new => feedback
Jul 14, 2020 3:01 pm Chris_McElligottPark Note Added: 0057590
Jul 14, 2020 4:55 pm BadgerBadger Note Added: 0057599
Jul 15, 2020 4:08 am ArnaudB Note Added: 0057605
Jul 15, 2020 4:08 am ArnaudB Status feedback => assigned
Jul 15, 2020 9:38 am ArnaudB File Added: AAR_Difficulty10_ArnaudB.rar
Jul 15, 2020 9:38 am ArnaudB File Added: Difficulty10Commentary.txt
Jul 15, 2020 9:38 am ArnaudB Note Added: 0057609
Jul 15, 2020 10:19 am ParadoxSong Note Added: 0057610
Jul 15, 2020 10:24 am ArnaudB Note Added: 0057611
Jul 15, 2020 11:18 am BadgerBadger Note Added: 0057614
Jul 15, 2020 11:39 am ArnaudB Note Added: 0057615
Jul 15, 2020 12:11 pm Chris_McElligottPark Note Added: 0057616
Jul 15, 2020 12:13 pm BadgerBadger Note Added: 0057617
Jul 15, 2020 12:19 pm BadgerBadger Note Edited: 0057617
Jul 15, 2020 12:23 pm BadgerBadger Note Edited: 0057617
Jul 15, 2020 12:31 pm BadgerBadger Note Edited: 0057617
Jul 15, 2020 12:31 pm RocketAssistedPuffin Note Added: 0057618
Jul 15, 2020 12:33 pm Chris_McElligottPark Note Added: 0057619
Jul 15, 2020 12:34 pm Chris_McElligottPark Note Added: 0057620
Jul 15, 2020 12:48 pm BadgerBadger Note Added: 0057621
Jul 15, 2020 12:50 pm BadgerBadger Note Added: 0057622
Jul 15, 2020 2:47 pm Chris_McElligottPark Note Added: 0057623
Jul 15, 2020 2:51 pm ArnaudB Note Added: 0057624
Jul 15, 2020 3:15 pm BadgerBadger Assigned To Chris_McElligottPark => BadgerBadger
Jul 15, 2020 5:12 pm BadgerBadger Relationship added related to 0023398
Apr 3, 2022 1:55 pm BadgerBadger Status assigned => closed
Apr 3, 2022 1:55 pm BadgerBadger Resolution open => no change required
Apr 3, 2022 1:55 pm BadgerBadger Fixed in Version => 4.006 Careful Of That Federation!
Apr 3, 2022 1:55 pm BadgerBadger Note Added: 0065699