View Issue Details
| ID | Project | Category | Date Submitted | Last Update | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 0010303 | Valley 2 | Suggestion - Gameplay | Jan 6, 2013 6:04 pm | Jan 25, 2013 12:10 pm | |
| Reporter | Dash275 | Assigned To | Chris_McElligottPark | ||
| Status | resolved | Resolution | fixed | ||
| Fixed in Version | 0.720 | ||||
| Summary | 0010303: Suggestion for chunks that require special platforming abilities (e.g. Double Jump) | ||||
| Description | I find it frustrating to embark onto a tile only to find in the first two seconds I need the double or triple jump. I don't even know when or where or how I get these, and I'm on tier 3 spells right now. This is one of those Metroidvania aspects that Valley 2 needs to consider addressing. Normally this sort of thing is used to direct a player to explore another place and provide a less linear path of gameplay. Right now the game is headed toward being a linear platformer with some grand strategy elements. I propose a few things to address my personal frustration with these chunks, but I feel these might help keep the game's flow together in general. One, you could take these chunks out entirely by editing them so you don't need these extra jumps. Extra jumping power is always helpful in combat, but by and large the characters in Valley 2 don't need them (even for the insane henchman fights and henchman chunks) except for getting over these arbitrary hurdles. This could make for some very unique chunks in that if players do have or do go back with platforming abilities, there could be some difficult or otherwise inaccessible areas with tokens or extra items to reward players for playing with their new toys. Two, you could put a notice on the world map that says "area will require X", so you do not have to waste your turn sending resistance members a few turns behind you to "follow" your planned purification of a tile, then get there and realize you wasted a dispatch because you can't actually purify that tile yet. I about lost a game because I rallied my team only to be blocked by a 20 foot wall. | ||||
| Tags | No tags attached. | ||||
| Internal Weight | Feature Suggestion | ||||
| has duplicate | 0010345 | closed | Put icon on strategic map when a room is found that requires a special ability to pass |
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These are to limit expansion or find alternate ways around until you've made so much progression. The skelebot research facility tiles you find are where perks like that are hidden, and you have to retrieve them. No reason to outright remove them then endgame "hey, you need these here perks that you don't have any of!" And if you didn't know about this, one of your survivors also alerts you about research facilities and getting perks, and adding it to your strategic view. And it's in the help. And some of them have more platformy challenges too, so there's no reason to remove them, making EVERYTHING easier, and taking your time to re-explore something just for that chance of something special when a new tile can do that for you that better utilizes that something special. Besides, you can scout a tile, visiting it, without having to commit to going through it, so you can check it out first, see it's okay, turn around, call in your survivors, then go for the win |
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At no point has my guide pointed me in the direction of the research facilities, and nor have I even found any on my maps yet. Being in the help file isn't enough. It absolutely has to be a forefront thing if it's going to be impeding my progress. This can be fixed though. As far as committing to turns by scouting, fine, but then we should at least add a pop up on the world map so you can scout and not waste an extra ten seconds loading, looking, and leaving a chunk. And as far as the platforming difficulty goes, there exist games where you have difficult platforming that require no extra abilities. Mega Man 7 can largely be completed without Rush or the Rush suit that gives a double jump, and Super Mario World can be completed without using the cape or Yoshi jumping. Despite these limitations, there are special areas that can give you neat stuff and more things if you decide to branch out and do something more difficult. |
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Who's really going to waste their time going to the end of each tile just to check if you can actually purify it, leaving and actually ordering the dispatch, THEN redoing the whole tile just to actually purify it? That's a ridiculous thing to expect anyone to do. Having your strategy foiled by tiles you wanted to purify in a few turns turn out to be roadblocked is annoying and possibly game ending, but wasting the player's time by letting them go through the entire tile, only to find out later they can't complete it is just lame. There has to be a better way to handle these "gates" of sorts. |
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But why would you give away completion without a higher minimum effort? Leaving them to be only for re-exploring is a waste, as it may be a while before you get that power, then all of that exploring you did and all those extras you found that were out of your reach are essentially lost. Being a metroidvania-style, having them makes COMPLETE sense. Someone new to metroid wouldn't know the morph ball exists, so the first time they see a small space, they try to crouch, etc, until they find out they can't fit in it, and go away, but beyond it is a whole area meant for the morph ball. Sure it branches off an area traversed normally, but it's not through a whole maze of paths and just on the side, at least not until you get to the normal area by way of morph ball tunnel opening to a new area. Same goes with the doors. Why bother with missile doors at all? Why bother with ammo doors? Just make them normal doors and put the content that requires being powered up to having missiles on the side. Put enemies that need that ammo shot at them on the side. Forget the water puzzles that you first have to swim to. It's all overrated anyways. And I don't remember the game telling me "you can't go in this tunnel until you have the morph ball" so I think they're already doing a kindness in telling you that you can't progress. Sure you could read the manual (help log/strategic overview) and that would give you a heads up, but the fact the game comes to you and tells you already is quite a favor. As for not telling you about them, how far have you progressed? There are 5/6 on your world (depending on how new it was made, having the deprecated perk removed), and after so many turns, as with all of the other comments the survivors make to help you find stuff and progress, one of them mentions the research facilities, and when one is at least seen, you'll be able to pinpoint it in your overview, if you can't find it yourself. However, you need to get out and explore, pushing the wind back, in order to find them. But you can still get told about them before finding one. Perhaps you've overlooked it or missed it telling you. Edit: As to Gemzo, the blocks aren't at the END of a tile. They're at the beginning. The VERY beginning. Like within your first 2 seconds, as dash said. And there's a tombstone next to the obstacle with something along the lines of "Woe to the traveler who tried to pass here. If only he had known Double Jump." No need to go to the end of the tile, wasting all that time. You can scout it for needed perk within just a few seconds. |
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This game isn't aiming to be a Metroidvania game. There's literally no exploration. There are a few arbitrary hurdles, but this game in its current and intended form can be completed with no exploration outside of what the game tells you to do. All of the levels are perfectly linear, the game tells you to go get new classes in the linear overlord's keep so you can do more linear levels. This game is aiming to be like ActRaiser, where there is grand strategy with platforming in between. |
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From Arcen Games, on their website, in the wiki area, from Arcen Games: "When you get right down to it, what we're trying to make is a Metroidvania game, and I don't personally know of any of them that use a mouse-style of control." I think Arcen knows what Arcen is making. And perhaps we're playing different games, but as I've seen, and I'm sure the developers will point out, and have, there's exploration. Perhaps it's somewhat like ActRaiser, but AVWW2 is more of an alternate take on AVWW's exploration and survivor leadership. That game didn't tell you what you needed to progress. You had to craft your spells and figure out what you needed where. |
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Regardless of the specific genre the game belongs to, anyone who makes anything is prone to not being able to see things for what they are. Anyone can make a control setup, but if it is arcane or unwieldy even developers might not notice because they've been using it the whole development cycle. I am here because I have a deep concern as to the identity and flow of Valley 2, and I'm suggesting a feature to make the game more accessible and suggesting making the game interesting by embracing something that might sound foreign, either by being more platformer by having traditional "extras can help but are not required" elements, or by adding to the grand strategy part of the game by having an information display prior to entering an area. |
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Slices that require feats are NOT always at the beginning. There are several slice categories that are tagged as both "interior" or "cavern" and "must have double/triple jump" or "must have mini," and obviously the very beginning of a tile is not inside a building nor cave ever. Yes most gates are at the start, but the existence of these slices means my argument is still valid. |
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As suggested in the issue about which tiles have perks and tokens available, I say it would be better to NOT mark them except by dispatch mission. From a continuity standpoint, how does anybody know what's where? If Scout Area was a dispatch mission that affected a 5x5 square or a 5-radius diamond, you could send someone to see what is hidden in the tiles, including merc coins, perk tokens, and perk obstacles. Perhaps the scout could also reveal other stuff, but it would make more sense to have the area scouted than to simply know. At least with the strategic overview telling you where certain buildings are, it tells you where the survivors see them sitting once the area has had wind pushed out. And being a dispatch, it would still be able to improve morale so it's not a worthless dispatch. |
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From a gameplay standpoint, it takes 10 seconds to open a chunk, look for a warning about needed feats, then leave. Why not shorten that to 0 by having a pop-up when you stand on the tile before going in? I'm not going to waste a dispatch to look at 25 tiles for feat requirements if I can use my dispatch for something productive and the only cost being me taking 5 minutes to look at tiles. |
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feat requirements AS WELL AS hidden tokens etc etc. and it's not a waste if it brings morale too. perhaps have an added bonus to morale for everything it finds. |
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Is it REALLY too much to ask for my own character to keep track of which tiles s/he has already looted? That should not require a dispatch, period. As for merc coins, that is just silly. The slices aren't even picked until you enter the room when the map is generated, AFAIK, so this just wouldn't work. |
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Thanks! * The arbitrary blockages that sometimes required you to get a specific feat, but showed up rarely, have been removed. Additionally, the arbitrary blockages relating to a feat that would show up after you had the feat have been removed. ** That said, non-arbitrary always-there blockages have been retained or added as follows: *** Water Dash: Ocean Shallows Buildings tiles, Swamp Pagodas, Swamp Hovels *** Double Jump: Ice Age Forests and Thawing Forests *** Triple Jump: Stratospheric Citadels and later parts of the Overlord Keep. ** Miniaturize is not required in order to traverse any main-path sections, however it is useful for taking many shortcuts or easier routes through main sections, and for getting to various side bits of treasure. * The various world map tiles that have specific blockades in them now include that information in their descriptions. * The miniaturize feat now includes a description of what it is useful for in the feats window. |
| Date Modified | Username | Field | Change |
|---|---|---|---|
| Jan 6, 2013 6:04 pm | Dash275 | New Issue | |
| Jan 6, 2013 8:03 pm | Kio | Note Added: 0029627 | |
| Jan 6, 2013 8:11 pm | Dash275 | Note Added: 0029629 | |
| Jan 6, 2013 8:19 pm | Gemzo | Note Added: 0029630 | |
| Jan 6, 2013 8:20 pm | Gemzo | Note Edited: 0029630 | |
| Jan 6, 2013 8:21 pm | Gemzo | Note Edited: 0029630 | |
| Jan 6, 2013 8:25 pm | Kio | Note Added: 0029632 | |
| Jan 6, 2013 8:29 pm | Kio | Note Edited: 0029632 | |
| Jan 6, 2013 8:30 pm | Dash275 | Note Added: 0029633 | |
| Jan 6, 2013 8:47 pm | Kio | Note Added: 0029636 | |
| Jan 6, 2013 9:14 pm | Dash275 | Note Added: 0029640 | |
| Jan 7, 2013 12:25 am | Gemzo | Note Added: 0029643 | |
| Jan 7, 2013 12:26 am | Gemzo | Note Edited: 0029643 | |
| Jan 7, 2013 11:53 am | Kio | Note Added: 0029664 | |
| Jan 7, 2013 12:03 pm | Dash275 | Note Added: 0029669 | |
| Jan 7, 2013 2:53 pm | Kio | Note Added: 0029678 | |
| Jan 7, 2013 3:32 pm | Gemzo | Note Added: 0029679 | |
| Jan 7, 2013 3:33 pm | Gemzo | Note Edited: 0029679 | |
| Jan 11, 2013 10:44 pm | Dash275 | Relationship added | related to 0010345 |
| Jan 17, 2013 2:45 pm | tigersfan | Internal Weight | => Feature Suggestion |
| Jan 17, 2013 2:45 pm | tigersfan | Status | new => considering |
| Jan 17, 2013 2:45 pm | tigersfan | Relationship replaced | has duplicate 0010345 |
| Jan 25, 2013 12:10 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Note Added: 0030191 | |
| Jan 25, 2013 12:10 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Status | considering => resolved |
| Jan 25, 2013 12:10 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Fixed in Version | => 0.720 |
| Jan 25, 2013 12:10 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Resolution | open => fixed |
| Jan 25, 2013 12:10 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Assigned To | => Chris_McElligottPark |
