View Issue Details

IDProjectCategoryLast Update
0000569AI War 1 / ClassicSuggestion - Balance TweaksOct 18, 2010 10:37 am
ReporterSNAFU Assigned ToChris_McElligottPark  
Status resolvedResolutionfixed 
Product Version3.715 
Summary0000569: AI Artillery Guardians - Too hard?
DescriptionI'm currently at an impasse in my new game due to these.

Attached screen shot is of 7 of the smug-looking Mk III variants chilling at max range from the wormhole to my home system.

This is the first system I've tried to take (a Mk I system) and as you can see I'm almost an hour in and running with +300% handicap.

Just about everything I can reasonably throw at them at this time in the game gets ripped to shreds. Bum rush of 400+ fleet ships, transport raids, starships, you name it :(

I eventually managed to coax them into coming into my home system by sending the starships but I consider that a less than ideal solution. I could only imagine how bad (or how long) it would be if I weren't running with the handicap :\

Perhaps at the least their bonus against Polycrystal hulls needs tweaking? Bombers are the most effective solution against them in the standard fleet ship 'triangle', yet these Guardians have a bonus against them. 10 shots x 81,000 dmg each x 4 bonus to Polycrystal seems a bit over the top :p
TagsNo tags attached.
Internal Weight

Relationships

related to 0000684 resolvedChris_McElligottPark Still too many guardians 

Activities

SNAFU

Oct 16, 2010 3:41 am

reporter  

Draco18s

Oct 16, 2010 3:29 pm

developer   ~0000972

I just had four Mk4 versions "show up" and kill my home command station within one minute of them entering the system.

All I did to piss them off was attack a Mk4 system with a planetary cloaker (all I killed was the cloaker, losing my entire fleet in the process). They had to travel from that system, through the system I colonized (which was relatively new and died within moments to everything else that came after me), and then to my home system.

Lancefighter

Oct 16, 2010 3:31 pm

reporter   ~0000974

Like ive said - artillery guardians LOVE giving up their post. I think they need to stop doing that.

keith.lamothe

Oct 16, 2010 3:32 pm

administrator   ~0000975

I dunno, sounds like it's working pretty well for them ;)

Draco18s

Oct 16, 2010 3:37 pm

developer   ~0000976

A little too well. I was barely an hour into my game and nothing can kill them. I was already holding off a beam guardian with 3 Riot Mk2s (because I had no fleet, or very little, which the artillery guardians promptly killed).

:|

keith.lamothe

Oct 16, 2010 3:38 pm

administrator   ~0000977

Yea, it does sound like they're a bit too powerful for the early game at least. Seems like there needs to be some readily available ships that kill them more easily. They're supposed to actually be fairly fragile. I don't think they got that memo.

Draco18s

Oct 16, 2010 3:42 pm

developer   ~0000978

Last edited: Oct 16, 2010 3:44 pm

Flak guardians I was able to kill (slowly, but without loss) with "anything but fighters." Fighters just died because of their mutual range, everything could just sit outside and blast them. Beam guardians were similarly not too much of an issue, due to their low damage and firing rate (they killed some frigates).

Edit: also I was fighting off Mk4 guardians. Someone needs to do something about the "abundance of Mk4 worlds near the starting area." Two of the worlds neighboring me were Mk4 (the one I killed I forgot to check). Of the next two out that I knew of, one was Mk3 the other was Mk4.

Lancefighter

Oct 16, 2010 3:42 pm

reporter   ~0000979

^^ well then buff the other guardians up to 'WAHH I HATE THEM ALL' status, so not just artillery guardians are annoying.

Draco18s

Oct 16, 2010 3:45 pm

developer   ~0000980

Lance: I'd only accept that solution if they can't use wormholes. They're GUARDIANS not Attack-and-pwn-your-face-ians.

Lancefighter

Oct 16, 2010 3:46 pm

reporter   ~0000981

I disagree. x4000 and keith have repeatedly said their job is to kill humans.

Let them ALL do that, not just artillery ones.

keith.lamothe

Oct 16, 2010 4:04 pm

administrator   ~0000982

I'm not sure of Chris's intent, but I'd imagine the artillery ones would fit into the role of being much easier to kill than the rest, but much more dangerous if left alive.

Chris_McElligottPark

Oct 16, 2010 4:14 pm

administrator   ~0000983

There's nothing wrong with the mark IV worlds near homeworlds -- that's 100% entirely by design, and that hasn't changed since pre-1.0 of AI War. You could be absolutely surrounded two deep by mark IV worlds, and that's entirely valid (but a really unlucky map seed, to be sure).

Also, the willingness to leave their posts is not something I'm going to consider changing, either, as that's the whole point of these guys. They are a counter attack force, and it sounds like it's working quite well.

However, in thinking about this more, I think that the tech level of the guardians needs to match the tech level of the AI, rather than of the planet. Right now it's just too hard when you run into a high-level planet, moreso than it should be.

keith.lamothe

Oct 16, 2010 4:16 pm

administrator   ~0000984

While it's adding another special case, I would suggest only suppressing the Mk level of the guardians on planets within, say, 3 planets of the human homeworld. Outside that I think it would be good to hit them with the full deal ;)

Chris_McElligottPark

Oct 16, 2010 4:21 pm

administrator   ~0000985

Hmmm... maybe a system like mark IIs after 3 planets out, and mark Vs at the AI homeworlds, and then letting it grow from there as appropriate.

Then again, possibly these things just have too dang much health at the moment. Putting them back with 10x lower health, but with having 3 slots per planet instead of 2, might be a good idea. Having the mark levels work differently than now is sounding less and less good; I think the balance just isn't right, yet.

Chris_McElligottPark

Oct 16, 2010 4:31 pm

administrator   ~0000987

* Guardian health is now 5x lower across the board. They do still have their attack buffs from the last release, but now they are much more fragile overall. The goal is to have them be fairly fragile, but at the same time a real counterattack risk (they do a lot of damage) if they slip past you.

* The Polycrystal bonus of Artillery Guardians has been swapped out for a Turret bonus.

* Flak Guardians, lightning guardians, and tractor guardians all now have a bonus agains turrets.

We'll see how this looks in 3.717.

Draco18s

Oct 16, 2010 8:47 pm

developer   ~0001037

May I suggest that Seige starships be capable of damaging guardians?

Chris_McElligottPark

Oct 16, 2010 8:48 pm

administrator   ~0001038

Yep, that was done just moments ago, thanks to Lancefighter suggesting the same. :)

Draco18s

Oct 16, 2010 9:18 pm

developer   ~0001042

BTW, X, what do you mean by "3 slots per planet instead of 2"? Because I'm looking at a Mk1 planet that has:
6 Artillery
29 Beam Guardians
12 Flak
16 Lightning
(4 Tachyon)

It only has 2 guard posts (C.A. and an MLRS). It also has a Mk3 Fortress.

Chris_McElligottPark

Oct 16, 2010 9:32 pm

administrator   ~0001043

I changed my mind, it's still 2 slots instead of 3. It should only have 2 guardians per guard post, wormhole, and AI command station...

Draco18s

Oct 16, 2010 10:00 pm

developer   ~0001053

Then 126 Guardians for a system is too many than intended. :|
(I count 5 guard posts, 5 wormholes, a command station, a spec forces, and a train station)
http://i53.tinypic.com/14n0i7o.png

Chris_McElligottPark

Oct 16, 2010 10:13 pm

administrator   ~0001056

Yikes:

* Fixed a bug that was previously letting far too many guardians get built. A maximum of 2 guardians per guard post, wormhole, or command station should be in the game.

Thanks!

Draco18s

Oct 16, 2010 10:28 pm

developer   ~0001060

You're welcome X.

Chris_McElligottPark

Oct 16, 2010 10:41 pm

administrator   ~0001062

A few points of clarification:

1. There is usually an extra tachyon guardian per wormhole

2. Some wormholes have more than one wormhole guard post at them, which give them more guardians as well as more extra ships:
- 1 extra wormhole guard posts per wormhole for the turtle AI types.
- 1 extra wormhole guard posts per wormhole for being on diff 8 or higher.
- back down to 1 wormhole guard post pr wormhole for the really aggressive types.
- 3 extra wormhole guard posts per wormhole for being a home planet.
- 1 extra wormhole guard posts per wormhole for the adjacent-to-home planets.

So that can play with the numbers some, but not up to 126 or whatever. ;)

Draco18s

Oct 16, 2010 11:46 pm

developer   ~0001074

And not 126 only 2 jumps from the player homeworld. Definitely.

Chris_McElligottPark

Oct 18, 2010 10:37 am

administrator   ~0001185

The only outstanding thing from this is now in 0000684, so closing this one.

Issue History

Date Modified Username Field Change
Oct 16, 2010 3:41 am SNAFU New Issue
Oct 16, 2010 3:41 am SNAFU File Added: Screenshot_2010_10_16_02_08_56.png
Oct 16, 2010 3:29 pm Draco18s Note Added: 0000972
Oct 16, 2010 3:31 pm Lancefighter Note Added: 0000974
Oct 16, 2010 3:32 pm keith.lamothe Note Added: 0000975
Oct 16, 2010 3:37 pm Draco18s Note Added: 0000976
Oct 16, 2010 3:38 pm keith.lamothe Note Added: 0000977
Oct 16, 2010 3:42 pm Draco18s Note Added: 0000978
Oct 16, 2010 3:42 pm Lancefighter Note Added: 0000979
Oct 16, 2010 3:44 pm Draco18s Note Edited: 0000978
Oct 16, 2010 3:45 pm Draco18s Note Added: 0000980
Oct 16, 2010 3:46 pm Lancefighter Note Added: 0000981
Oct 16, 2010 4:04 pm keith.lamothe Note Added: 0000982
Oct 16, 2010 4:14 pm Chris_McElligottPark Note Added: 0000983
Oct 16, 2010 4:16 pm keith.lamothe Note Added: 0000984
Oct 16, 2010 4:21 pm Chris_McElligottPark Note Added: 0000985
Oct 16, 2010 4:31 pm Chris_McElligottPark Note Added: 0000987
Oct 16, 2010 4:31 pm Chris_McElligottPark Assigned To => Chris_McElligottPark
Oct 16, 2010 4:31 pm Chris_McElligottPark Status new => feedback
Oct 16, 2010 8:47 pm Draco18s Note Added: 0001037
Oct 16, 2010 8:48 pm Chris_McElligottPark Note Added: 0001038
Oct 16, 2010 9:18 pm Draco18s Note Added: 0001042
Oct 16, 2010 9:32 pm Chris_McElligottPark Note Added: 0001043
Oct 16, 2010 10:00 pm Draco18s Note Added: 0001053
Oct 16, 2010 10:13 pm Chris_McElligottPark Note Added: 0001056
Oct 16, 2010 10:28 pm Draco18s Note Added: 0001060
Oct 16, 2010 10:41 pm Chris_McElligottPark Note Added: 0001062
Oct 16, 2010 11:46 pm Draco18s Note Added: 0001074
Oct 18, 2010 10:34 am Chris_McElligottPark Relationship added related to 0000684
Oct 18, 2010 10:37 am Chris_McElligottPark Note Added: 0001185
Oct 18, 2010 10:37 am Chris_McElligottPark Status feedback => resolved
Oct 18, 2010 10:37 am Chris_McElligottPark Resolution open => fixed