|
|
nsp.jpg (36,620 bytes) |
|
|
The problem is that with things like that the player can hide behind a wall and then just spam that against the boss without ever being in danger. Things like that are planned, but would have to be limited-use to be viable and not abusable. |
|
|
Also, that is an awesome concept sketch document you got there. ;D |
|
|
That's true given AVWW's current boss room meta, which is mostly cover based sniping (sniping bosses from behind walls from 2 screens away). Sometimes I wish the boss room meta was changed slightly so that it was more dodge based and less cover based - Megaman room bosses (just to quote an example) have little to no cover for a reason, since it tends to lend bosses a bit more of an impact. Shifting the design of boss rooms to having little to no true cover and many mobility options (platforms) might potentially make this style of spell more viable and overall make boss battles more interesting. |
|
|
The problem with removing cover is the monster nests. Sure you can dodge a boss 1 on 1 but you can't if there's other enemies around. Besides that lots of bosses in certain situations are just too strong to face head on rather than trying to find a solution from a safer place. As for non-self originated projectiles, I don't see why they need to go through walls. Just make it unusable without enough space where the projectile spawns. It's not like launch rock and the like aren't already screwed by cramped quarters, why stop there? >_> |
|
|
That's only assuming that bosses are kept ceteris paribus. If the meta was changed, I'd expect their projectiles to become more dodgable (rather than having a terrible amount of pseudo homing or high speeds as is the current case) and the movement speed to be reduced slightly on certain bosses. Monster nests are not a major issue (exception: Will o' Wisps or Northern Lights maybe) because you'd reduce the number of them - and most monster nests are destructible if you don't feel capable of dodging the spawns (or you can just take a hit from the spawns, which do less damage than a boss) - and it's actually not impossible to create game balance where you can dodge both monsters and a boss at the same time even in limited spaces. There are MANY games with bosses that spawn minions. Maybe this boss balance thing should be taken to a separate issue - but currently I feel as if most boss battles are too much an issue of long-ranged sniping with long ranged projectiles (I don't even see most bosses except the ones that zerg-rush me like large bats) and as a result they're trivial or annoying to track down in a HUGE room (some boss rooms are fine) when bosses in almost any other 2D platformer game have traditionally always had the following staples: 1)They dominate small spaces with their presence, meaning you can't just ignore them as in AVWW. 2)There are few, if any, completely covered "Safe spots" in the boss room. AVWW has way too many huge rooms with spaces from which I can just fire say, ball lightning or summon spells and take no risk whatsoever or even go AFK. Large-room boss battles involve finding one of said safe spots or just kiting in a single direction. 3)Heavily pattern based. AVWW's overlords are mostly fine (I haven't fought many yet, but the ones I did were in a medium-small room where I couldn't just ignore them - BUT I did end up sniping them from an area where they weren't visible. Isn't it a bit sad that I wouldn't even know what an overlord looks like if I hadn't poked around the game texture files?) 4)Focus on proper dodging over firing from cover. I personally believe dodging is much better suited to 2D platformers than cover is and ever can be. That's not to say cover doesn't exist, but it's usually combined with heavy dodging. 5)Getting hit provides a second or two of invincibility. This doesn't happen in AVWW, which was one of the causes of instant death by shrapnel barrels. It's a feature that paces platformers well by allowing bosses to have more spammy projectile attacks while minimising frustration. I think it's just good design. When boss battles are kept up close and personal, I believe they tend to be more engaging, more exciting, and the issue of sniping with non-clipping spells is moot because you aren't exactly safe anywhere on the screen. I think the current state of the game makes boss rooms more of an annoyance than a challenge. References: Metroidvanias (I've played nearly every single one released), Cave Story, just about any 2D platformer game, actually (Find me one boss that doesn't use these principles). (edit: Updated with a fifth point. Maybe I should just split this into separate suggestions) |
|
|
Have you played on the highest difficulty? The minions aren't something you can "just take a hit from" and there are certainly too many situations where dodging both them and the boss is impossible if you stay around and dodge out in the open. There needs to be places for the player to retreat to or they'll die without so much as putting a dent in the boss's health gauge. Removing cover from boss rooms just wouldn't work in the current state... As for changing boss fights to be more dodge-oriented, you have to realize that the games you mention have rooms custom-tailored for each boss, and only have minions where it is sane to have them. Redoing every boss room to perfectly fit the redone bosses is a ton of work and is exactly what this suggestion would require. But nonetheless it is a solution, yet there could be ones that don't take nearly as much labor to get done. And yes rebalancing boss rooms is worth submitting a new issue. |
|
|
@Gemzo: That's actually why I emphasized that such changes wouldn't be carried out ceteris paribus. You'd have to re-balance quite a lot of everything, including limiting monster spawners (Enemy type, number, or even removing them entirely. It's not like old-school boss rooms traditionally throw health sources at you) It's possible to create a difficult game without resorting to having what I'll just call the "Diablo 3 Inferno" feeling (huge amounts of damage and cheap unavoidable attacks). The current meta has a very very bad habit of changing bosses (especially the ones that cannot jump) into a bunch of floating off-screen healthbars. Note that however, games should NOT be balanced around the hardest difficulty level. Additionally, boss rooms also don't have to deviate much from the rectangular design - consider boss rush mode in the GBA Castlevanias, which is essentially a string of linear rectangular rooms (excepting Legion). I'd even say the vast majority of games do this, including Megaman, Metroid, Super Mario Brothers 3, all of the Bubble Bobbles, including Parasol Stars. Very few bosses have custom-tailored rooms in the sense that you could place most bosses in square rooms (with a modicum of maneuverability, say a few platforms) and not have the encounter significantly changed. This problem is actually exacerbated by the fact that unlike such games, we have 360 degree targetted aiming; this encourages cheap "hide and snipe" tactics which turn the game into an offscreen healthbar fest. The ridiculously huge boss rooms we currently have could still be used in the multi-boss missions, so they wouldn't be wasted assets. But yes, this kind of needs its own topic. |
- Anonymous
