View Issue Details
| ID | Project | Category | Date Submitted | Last Update | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 0002375 | AI War 1 / Classic | Suggestion - Game Mechanics | Jan 11, 2011 11:00 am | Jan 15, 2011 9:49 am | |
| Reporter | zebramatt | Assigned To | Chris_McElligottPark | ||
| Severity | tweak | ||||
| Status | considering | Resolution | open | ||
| Product Version | 4.065 | ||||
| Summary | 0002375: Greater starting resources please! | ||||
| Description | Although opinion in the community remains divided, there is some not-insignificant support for the suggestion that we start with greater amounts of metal and crystal than the rather paltry 20k+ of each. The main argument is that the current levels inspire (many) players to queue up their starting defenses, fleet and/or starships and then wait - with use of the speed up button to reduce this real waiting time. | ||||
| Tags | No tags attached. | ||||
| Internal Weight | |||||
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Yep. Every time I hit that "start game" button, I know I am going to pause, set turrets building, queue up my dock, then go do something else for a bit before I really start the game. |
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I tend to find the current resources to be generally sufficient to get me all set up to handle the first wave, even on difficulty 9. Whether having to manually click/build everything every time you start the game is a different issue, because it does get kind of boring to start a game, set up everything else, and then wait 10 minutes before you can actually make a move, because if you make a move you're not going to have enough defenses left to handle that first wave. |
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I wouldn't mind having a little more starting resources, maybe something like 100k each. While my initial fleet builds, I spend the time scouting surrounding worlds, but I still wind up hitting a lot of resource blocks just getting my initial cap of mark 1 triangle + 1 bonus type ships out. |
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I got an even better suggestion for this. I agree resources are a bit low (its not extremely hard, but it makes the first 15 minutes kinda boring - since everything only really starts once turrets, scouting and MK1 fleet is done. Anyway, theres many ways to fix this imo 1) Add a resource value (say, 50k) for EACH wormhole that the homeworld has (if its more than 1 homeworld then only the 1 with the most wormholes counts. 2) Add "free ships" (or pretty much, spawn 33% of the cap of each MK1 + 20% of the cap of the bonus ship + 100% MK1 scouts (all 10 ;p) - and NOT MK2 scouts. 3) Add free turrets that are instantly built once placed and cost NO energy (15 per wormhole) that the player can place at his discretion (would add a lot of strategy too, if it applies for the MK2 and MK3 turrets) Anyway just throwing it in. Basically i am impartial to this (i expand around minute 10 and it takes me that long just to scout ,p) |
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I agree that a bit more starting resources would heavily reduce the "spin up time" at the start of the game. Especially in multiplayer where we might have to end up starting the game a few times because of unlucky placement of impossible to crack planets (defined as a Mark IV world with one or more counterwave posts next to a player homeworld) or other such issues (special forces alarm post two hops out from the path we have to expand down...), the 15 minutes it takes to get the basic turrets and fleet ships built is a real time sink. |
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I think the problem for most people is ... that you are not there managing your starting-econ(when you start a company the first year is what will make or break it, not the 100 year anniversary). I have a mk2 fleet up and kicking 15min into the game with which I could roll over the AI with the greatest ease (adjacent lvl4 planets), playing with 7.6-8 AIs. Either way it goes it doesnt matter that great a deal but I really feel very strongly about that it should not be increased based on the argument "I will just do something else for the first minutes". Manage your resources, hold of building turrets, 1 Rstation also gets your knowledge .. etc etc |
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There is validity to that argument, but I think people are not saying "the very early game is too hard, make it easier", I think they are saying "the very early game takes too long (and is the exact same every time), make it faster". That's what I'm saying at least. |
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Point taken, which isnt what I was aiming at either. How the argument atm comes across to me is "I want to AND expand my econ AND build a fleet AND set up some initial turrets AND I want to do it all in first 10-ish minutes so I can hammer down the first AI planet about 5 minuntes into the game and again have a full fleet when the first AI waves hit about 12 minutes into the game". I somewhat feel sorry if the early game would be abandonded cause some dont like the first 10min of a game that will often take you 7-8hours to complete, or more. Specially so when you can speed things up and just get it over in a couple or minutes or while you make yourself a cup of coffee. |
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If we want to keep the very early game the same difficulty but faster, the AI's early game would have to be sped up as well as the player's. Thus, if the players can get their defenses down faster (due to better starting resources), the AI would have to send their first attack earlier (because normally the first attack comes while you are still beginning to build up, and that should not change), and maybe get their first "reinforcement" swarm earlier too. (This would only affect the time until the first instance of these waves, not the overall rate) |
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What Tech says is very true, and is probably the main reason starting resources shouldn't be increased. |
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What Tech is says is true, but I take the opposite approach of Sunshine: give the potential for the AI to react to the increased resources. To further build upon the initial idea, I would like to know how valid this idea is: Create a structure like a distribution cache on the player home world that if destroyed provides a small cache of resources. This would be much smaller then one found on an AI world, but is immediately available. However, if a player uses it they incur AIP (roughly that of what it would take to generate the resources naturally) and perhaps a *small* wave will be triggered 5-10 minutes from the point of destruction (would a simple counter-attack wave do?) This would allow players to enjoy the very early game as it is now. It also provides a "start-up" bonus that is only useful in the beginning. This bonus comes with costs that optionally should be equal to that of waiting for resources to come naturally. EDIT: To be clear on the costs: The node should try to make it almost net-zero gain aside from saving time for the player without avoiding the costs of time within AI war. Meaning AIP still goes up and a wave which would hit you later hits you sooner. Actually, you would come out a little behind because the research would fall behind a little, but tradeoffs are necessary. This solution attempts to imply in-game characteristics to be easier to implement. This solution does have a few problems: The AI cost and counterattack wave will eventually be much more damaging then the little resource cache, but that is to ensure it is used either quickly or not at all. |
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I would support having a full cap of scouts at the start, and perhaps a larger starting income for AI difficulty 1-6. Make it easier for newer players on the lower difficulty. However i find the starting resources adequate as they are. Too many resources would translate to taking away choice from the player as they can have everything. Right now you've got to think about what you want you can't have it all. So you have the choice to build a fleet or build turrets or build both and wait in your home system for 15mins. |
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I'd say resources at the beginning are balanced. Might add that AIW is supposed to be a long game, its not a short jaunt and I prefer having a fairly long beginning. King |
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I would say that if the number of supporters is about the same as the number of opponents - that means the resources are actually balanced very good. |
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No, it just means things are contested. That's not how balance works. One side or the other could represent anything from a preference to a misunderstanding rather than actual good balance. to varying degrees I would love it if I could start at 999k resources and the AI gets the first wave hitting in 3 minutes. That way I can stop alt-tabbing out of AIW for minutes at game start. When I hit "Start Game" the game should start then, not after 15 minutes. |
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Perhaps more of a 'Quick Start' option would be more suitable for you Suzera? One where you can choose the amount of starting resources as well as the first AI wave time. |
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I'm wholeheartedly with Suzera on this one. My complaint was never about the beginning of the game being in any way too difficult due to a lack of starting resources. This is not an issue of balance. It is simply about reducing an aspect of the game which is much more grindy now than in the past, when starting resources were greater. Not only is this a genuine period of thumb-twiddling for many of us, but it's juxtaposed with the AI Wars' move to a broader spectrum of available starting units. The game both LETS me and WANTS me to put down a variety of units from the start. Yet when I do so - even with just a nominal (yet varied) force - my economy immediately tanks. At that point, I can either: micromanage pausing construction of this, that, this other thing; or wait fifteen minutes; or speed up the simulation. It's tedious and it smacks of traditional RTS resource metagames, without actually ever getting there. In short: if the game is made no more challenging by the level of starting resources; if I am implicitly encouraged to build a variety of ships; if the most obvious solution is simply to up the sim speed to get over a dull period; then all this serves to do is make the start of a game less fun - and what's the point in that? |
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I support the notion of a "quick start" option. Starts you off with max resources and full caps of all your mk1 fleetships and starships, but also starts the game with an incoming waves from both AIs with a slightly longer timer of 3 or 4 minutes (though normal wave time may actually work). All border planets should also get a free cycle or two of free reinforcements, with non-wave-sending AI types getting more cycles of reinforcements than normal. |
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A seperate "quick start" checkbox would be OK, with a brutal first minute AI force approaching maybe. But aside from that, you're pinned down to a location, lost everything that you had before, and low resources reflect that in my opinion. |
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I see the points here of those in favor of having more to start with. And to some extent, the points about how this would not really affect much are also correct: given the massive resource flows you already have at the start, it would take a huge number of resources extra to make much appreciable difference. I can also sympathize on the level that too-slow-of-a-start was my main gripe with most other RTS games: Age of Empires III and Supreme Commander jump most immediately to mind. The difference, in those games, was that I literally had NO options right at the start, unless I wanted to rush. I had to build the certain number of harvesters/farms/peons/whatever, and really spend all my time on my economy alone if I wanted to have a fighting chance at doing anything in the middle or late game. And since I'm a turtle, I also had the self-driven impetus to get up walls or other defensive structures in my base, on top of all that economic stuff. So that did literally mean that in a 60 minute game in one of those games, I wouldn't leave my base except for scouts for the first 15 minutes. And I wouldn't actually engage the enemy of my own accord until 30 minutes in (just if they engaged me first). That was boring, and I found myself reading books or alt-tabbing out, and so I really can sympathize. However, I really don't think there is anything nearly so troublesome here, which is why I'm basically deferring my decision on this: I won't make a change until sometime after 5.0 if there is a change, but I also won't completely close this yet. In all honesty, I think that if folks are just sitting around for 15 minutes, that's a turtling instinct that is doing that, not the starting resources. I'm very much a turtle myself, as I noted, yet I've found that if I throw up a few turrets (maybe 5 per wormhole, plus 1 tractor each, on an average of 3 wormholes), then I'm pretty covered on early defense. As I noted, the AI doesn't attack right instantly. This is YOUR opportunity to attack, it's the game letting you get going right away without having to fend off the AI immediately in a back-footed sort of fashion. So anyway, I think I usually have my first planet in under 10 minutes, sometimes two by 15. Not fully scrubbed and captured, but dead to the point that they won't be much threat, and to the point that they won't be sending in any warps from that direction. Assuming that I cap one or two planets in that fashion, then that even reduces the number of wormholes I have to defend right at the start, lowering the resource costs of that sort of early defense even further. Heck, if I get attacked, my forward fleet can just come back real quick. If I lose a few harvesters its no big deal, and if a larger wave is declared I have time for one, maybe two rounds of added turrets. Plus, minefields work incredibly well against most early waves. I can't remember the last time I lost in the first hour, or even got serious threatened, in that time -- I think people who are feeling resource-poor are just building defenses for hour-two in the first five minutes. Economically speaking, it makes more sense to just grab another couple of planets, and then suddenly you have tons more resources than any increase at the start would create. Anyway, that's probably the last I'll say on this for the moment as there are other things that require my attention and I don't want to make a change like this right before an official release in any case, but hopefully that helps. I don't really think a change is needed, but I could see myself being persuaded otherwise. It's a tricky issue, and the division of the players around here really does reflect that. But I also do think that the people who are hurting for resources right at the start might be well advised to try experimenting with a few different starting patterns. Hey, if you lose, you only wasted 15 minute of time, right? And if you win or it works out faster, then you've just saved yourself from self-inflicted slow starts on every future game, if that's what the issue turns out to be. Anyway: food for thought. |
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It's not turtling, you just have to have a full fleet on higher difficulties before doing anything anywhere near efficiently on offense. On a regular game for me pretty much all of that 15 minutes is spent building 5 missile turrets, 5 snipers, and then mk 1 and 2 of every fleet ship + flagship, and it's just barely done around the 15 minute mark, maybe. You can't effectively attack a planet right at the start with a fleet of 50 ships even on low cap. It's pointless. Even if I just build no turrets first, I'm still going to wait until I have a full ship cap. It's less of an issue running +300% vs +300% which I have been doing lately where I can have that all up after maybe 4-5 minutes, and MAYBE take down a planet before I have to pull back for the first wave. On a regular start, even building zero turrets and preparing for a full offense, you just can't get started before you have to worry about having enough ships to pull back to defend so you have to delay until after the wave. If the wave came at 10 minutes that would speed things up too at around difficulty 8 for a regular start. |
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Gate raiding is definitely possible with 50 or so fighters before the 10 minute mark on higher difficulties. As I said in another thread, it's entirely possible to get at least two good gate raids in, and build 30 basic/MLRS/laser/missile, 15 flak, two forcefields, full cap of mk1/mk2 fighters + bonus ships (and maybe frigates as well, I can't remember) before the first wave hits. And on difficulty 9, the first wave hits at 10 minutes IIRC, rather than being launched at 10 minutes. First thing is to get your factories building ships, and THEN build the turrets - the turrets don't take too long to build and while they're building you can be off attacking. I certainly don't have my first planet taken (or even destroyed) by the time the first wave hits, but I'm definitely on my way to it and have already made incursions on a couple nearby AI planets. I think a main difference is that you're trying to get starships built before the wave hits, and I don't worry about starships until later (I might get something queued up early, but I don't send engineers to assist it). You're also building sniper turrets, which are ridiculously expensive and I tend to ignore until a little bit later. |
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I can blitz/rush as good as I can turtle, and I have games where I take 40-50mins to build a mk2 fleet before I lash out towards the first AI planet. This is tedious and I usually use this tactic when I am boxed in or was still doing something else, like drinking more coffee.. However when I want I can be gateraiding 2min into the game. It just wont be lvl4 planets or ones with painfull items on them. I just cant be gateraiding 2mins into the game if I also wanted 2 extra Rstations, 4 more lvl2 engies, an extra dock, etc etc. It will be solelly bombers untill the gates are nuked after which I start on all the stuff I have been putting on hold. As Chris already explained, this game "allows" you to start with extremelly different strategies and I hate for this to be comprimised in favor of a solely blitz-style aproach to the early game. I'd rather see us start with 3 Rstations, 6 mk2 engies, 2 docks and perhaps even a cap of mk1 fighters, to give a feel that you already have something to get you going. |
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There's no reason to gate raid the start of the game though. Even blowing up just one gate increases your first wave size by 50% for...no return. It's going to go to your single home planet regardless of how many gates you raid. It is far better to just wait out until after the first wave then take a few planets quickly before the next, where you will have more knowledge for an increased ship cap to go with the increased AIP and far more defense. I only care about flagships for intial pooling. The doubling fleet attack is a huge benefit and really helps skew the economic K:D and thus economic efficiency in my favor. Every other starship is essentially an optional "build last", with Siege and Parasite Starships being "build lastest" and Light and Raid Starships being a bit more second tier. The amount of defensive stuff you are building for the first wave is ridiculously high in my opinion by the way. I just have around full ship cap of all mk 1 and 2 fleet ships and maybe flagships before first wave on normal settings and defend with that. Maybe 5 sniper turrets additionally, but that's it. Turrets can't go take a planet within 2-3 minutes after the first wave, but fleet ships and flagships can certainly defend against the first wave just fine. By the time the second wave hits, I have mk 3 bombers and maybe fortresses or mk 3 bonus ship, and have several new planets and am running around with a ship cap of pretty much everything, as well as at least 5 snipers and 5 missile turrets on every planet. Even by midgame on the 8s in difficulty I still only have the regular home planet FF + 1 FF on each other planet usually barring a BD hacker or some particularly mean tractor immune ship. |
| Date Modified | Username | Field | Change |
|---|---|---|---|
| Jan 11, 2011 11:00 am | zebramatt | New Issue | |
| Jan 11, 2011 11:14 am | Suzera | Note Added: 0008221 | |
| Jan 11, 2011 11:23 am | Sunshine | Note Added: 0008222 | |
| Jan 11, 2011 11:28 am | NickAragua | Note Added: 0008224 | |
| Jan 11, 2011 12:30 pm | eRe4s3r | Note Added: 0008236 | |
| Jan 11, 2011 12:33 pm | MaxAstro | Note Added: 0008237 | |
| Jan 11, 2011 1:07 pm | Red Spot | Note Added: 0008243 | |
| Jan 11, 2011 1:20 pm | MaxAstro | Note Added: 0008246 | |
| Jan 11, 2011 1:29 pm | Red Spot | Note Added: 0008249 | |
| Jan 11, 2011 1:49 pm | TechSY730 | Note Added: 0008254 | |
| Jan 11, 2011 1:53 pm | Sunshine | Note Added: 0008256 | |
| Jan 11, 2011 4:04 pm | chemicalart | Note Added: 0008260 | |
| Jan 11, 2011 4:29 pm | chemicalart | Note Edited: 0008260 | |
| Jan 11, 2011 4:37 pm | Varone | Note Added: 0008262 | |
| Jan 11, 2011 4:46 pm | kingisaaclinksr | Note Added: 0008263 | |
| Jan 11, 2011 5:43 pm | extesy | Note Added: 0008277 | |
| Jan 11, 2011 9:28 pm | Suzera | Note Added: 0008317 | |
| Jan 12, 2011 3:09 am | Varone | Note Added: 0008329 | |
| Jan 12, 2011 7:23 am | zebramatt | Note Added: 0008331 | |
| Jan 12, 2011 11:45 am | Sunshine | Note Added: 0008343 | |
| Jan 12, 2011 2:04 pm | lyravega | Note Added: 0008377 | |
| Jan 13, 2011 12:40 am | Chris_McElligottPark | Note Added: 0008405 | |
| Jan 13, 2011 12:40 am | Chris_McElligottPark | Assigned To | => Chris_McElligottPark |
| Jan 13, 2011 12:40 am | Chris_McElligottPark | Status | new => considering |
| Jan 13, 2011 2:53 pm | Suzera | Note Added: 0008435 | |
| Jan 13, 2011 2:54 pm | Suzera | Note Edited: 0008435 | |
| Jan 13, 2011 9:18 pm | Sunshine | Note Added: 0008440 | |
| Jan 14, 2011 4:46 pm | Red Spot | Note Added: 0008488 | |
| Jan 15, 2011 9:49 am | Suzera | Note Added: 0008532 | |
| Jan 15, 2011 9:50 am | Suzera | Note Edited: 0008532 | |
| Jan 15, 2011 9:50 am | Suzera | Note Edited: 0008532 | |
| Jan 15, 2011 9:51 am | Suzera | Note Edited: 0008532 | |
| Jan 15, 2011 9:52 am | Suzera | Note Edited: 0008532 | |
| Jan 15, 2011 9:53 am | Suzera | Note Edited: 0008532 | |
| Jan 15, 2011 9:54 am | Suzera | Note Edited: 0008532 | |
| Jan 15, 2011 9:54 am | Suzera | Note Edited: 0008532 | |
| Jan 15, 2011 9:55 am | Suzera | Note Edited: 0008532 | |
| Jan 15, 2011 9:56 am | Suzera | Note Edited: 0008532 | |
| Jan 15, 2011 9:57 am | Suzera | Note Edited: 0008532 | |
| Jan 15, 2011 9:57 am | Suzera | Note Edited: 0008532 | |
| Jan 15, 2011 9:59 am | Suzera | Note Edited: 0008532 | |
| Jan 15, 2011 10:00 am | Suzera | Note Edited: 0008532 | |
| Jan 15, 2011 10:01 am | Suzera | Note Edited: 0008532 |
