View Issue Details
| ID | Project | Category | Date Submitted | Last Update | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 0001248 | AI War 1 / Classic | Suggestion - Balance Tweaks | Nov 10, 2010 1:35 pm | Jan 10, 2011 11:37 pm | |
| Reporter | Wingflier | Assigned To | keith.lamothe | ||
| Status | resolved | Resolution | fixed | ||
| Product Version | 4.030 | ||||
| Fixed in Version | 4.065 | ||||
| Summary | 0001248: Role Definition: Military Orbital Command Station | ||||
| Description | I mentioned this somewhat in a thread I made on the forums, but the Military Orbital Command and the Logistics Orbital Command seem to have strongly conflicting roles. They are both still relatively weak and easy to kill (a flaw of the Original/Economy type), but one of them seems to do the job of "defense" much better than the other. As a poster mentioned, the Logistics bonus of a 100% reduction/increase in enemy/ally ship speed, respectively, is more useful 95% of the time than the small 20% bonus to damage (and tachyon emission) of the Military Orbital. Of course, upgrading the Military improves the planetary damage bonus significantly, but once again we have another dichotomy: You could spend that huge amount of knowledge on instead unlocking Turrets and Defenses, and continue using the Mark 1 Logistics Orbital instead to greater effect (as well as having more supply of defenses!). Part of the problem with the Military Orbital is that its weapons almost seem like they are "for show". Since it's almost foolish not to put them under a Force Field (lest they die extremely quickly), there is basically no way to prevent the damage reduction for their attack. This is a counter-intuitive game design. If the Military Orbitals were actually given a LOT of health, even without increasing the damage of their weapons, they would have a very different role than Logistic Stations, being somewhat defendable even without Force Fields, and having a unique position within the game (also freeing up Force Fields for offensive purposes etc.). Personally, I would love to have a the choice of an Orbital that didn't die every time it got breathed on. Even Orbitals under the influence of a shield can die extremely quickly to Raid Starships and other shield-ignoring attacks. I think the player should have some sort of option outside of that, maybe at the cost of resources. Another suggestion in the thread was to give the Military Orbitals a built-in shield (which hopefully wouldn't reduce the damage of their own attack ;p) that would give them a very different role than Logistics as well. Obviously, I could be wrong about this topic, but I wanted to bring it up and hear what people think. Thank you for your responses. | ||||
| Tags | No tags attached. | ||||
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The military command station attack was already buffed 8x; 4x to compensate for the forcefield penalty, 2x just to make it stronger. It can be buffed more, but I'm guessing that even 100x what it is now will not stop this incessant stream of complaints about military command stations ;) They also used to have a built-in forcefield but that causes it to be impossible to properly protect with another forcefield because directly-targeted-at-forcefield-generator shots will almost always hit that ff regardless of other ffs in the area. And they can't have a ff-module like a Riot, or other stuff like that, because Chris doesn't want any of the existing command station types (or really any existing types of anything except maybe fortresses) to have the module mechanic. |
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Would it be horrible to give them similar stats as a mk1 ff? then it wouldnt be required to protect them via additional forcefield.. |
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The damage the Military Orbital does is probably the smallest concern. The fact is, it would have to do an incredible amount of damage or be extremely hard to kill to have a role that would separate it from the powerful benefits of the Logistics Orbital. Personally I would just like to see it become a lot harder to kill, so you would have an Orbital that was tough enough to survive without a Force Field around it. If every Orbital has to have a Force Field (and from my experience this is true), it really limits what you can do with the game in that regard. What's the point of having Force Fields if you have to use them all on your Orbitals? They might as well be built in. |
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i think it may partly be an issue of the logistical mk i command being too strong. maybe if it had a reduced ability to slow enemy units. half enemy speed is going to be better than 20% firepower in most scenarios. id love if militaries were significantly tougher too, giving up that economic boost is not a small sacrifice... |
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I don't generally use the military command stations at all anymore, because it feels like I can just build a few turrets around an Econ Station and it'll be an equal, sometimes even better defense than a military station with its weapon and some extra HP. Plus I save a ton (several, actually) of knowledge that way. I can't compare to Logistics station though, because I haven't used them properly yet. Must be my playstyle. I want lots of resources and a strong defense. ;P But, the thing about Logistics is that the bonuses it offers are rare, unlike with Econ's resources and Military's weapons/HP, which you can obtain and build separately from the command station. You have options regarding those, but very very few alternatives regarding speed-affecting stuff. My opinion is that the military station needs more buffs, or its cost nerfed. I don't see myself ever using it otherwise, because there are other, cheaper ways to add firepower and defenses to command stations. |
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Perhaps the military com station could have more immunities? now it has blade immunity Adding Laser would eliminate Raid SS attack |
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we could totally throw in 'reduces nearby lasers' or whatever it is that deflector drones have. Maybe even throw in a decoy-drone like ability for lols. |
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I was going to suggest the deflector bonus too. It would make the military stations more useful when they can survive longer against raid starships. :) The highest Mk station could have an immunity though, as a sort of reward for upgrading that far. |
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As I see in the community poll results modular command stations are to be implemented some time in the future [though, I would rather put to gather the command stations myself than chose between what we have now] A force field mod on command stations almost seem needed as command stations almost exclusively have almost all of the force field generators that we have available to build. |
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I think the logistics might need a nerf by removing the enemy slowdown, throwing the things up in every system gives you massive strategic mobility, letting you bring your force to any planet in no time. The mil station uses missiles which are by far the least useful weapon type due to the many missile immune units, maybe making it fire something like energy bombs or shells would make it more useful as an addition to turrets, the current attack power isn't very good either (turrets have similar attack levels with multipliers up the donkey). Maybe add some planetary armor boost to the thing as well? Would make sense for a fortification to harden all defenses on the planet. |
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Armor boost is a nice idea indeed, and would follow the same principle as the logistics' speed boost. Similarly, while the Econ station works fine as it is, it could be pretty interesting if it too boosted the income of harvesters on the planet instead. Then all stations would have equal zone of effect, each contributing to a different thing. |
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Hm, that would also encourage placing econ stations where they would give the most benefit instead of using them as a default when the other stations aren't suitable... |
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Exactly. It would give them more purpose. Currently econ stations are basically just resource income exchanged for some knowledge. If that wouldn't work in all situations, but would potentially work better in some places... More interesting, I'd say. :) You might have more choices to make in some cases, like a chokepoint planet having lots of resources. To enhance the defense with mil station, or to get the resources with econ. |
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I'm still pushing for a modular command station, here's my ideas: - 1 advanced point for munitions boost, speed boost, or econ boost - a few regular points for resources, energy, weapons, and shields. I like modular over separate kinds of command station as I dislike having to destroy a command station just to get a different type in the system, and its even more annoying with the new colony ship mechanic. The ability to craft it to how you need it is also my main appeal. |
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Okay... so what of this? There was a ton of discussion, but this was long ago. One note: modular military command stations are not going to happen, I want modular stuff to all be optional-unlocked, not part of the core stuff. |
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Switch the halve enemy speed mechanic from Logistics to Military. Logistics will then be "highway" and "fast response" type stations, with moderate econ (and maybe one other ability related to logistics? Maybe repair within a certain radius? It might make MRS obsolete for defense, but still enables MRS to be used offensively with some difficulty from the set-up time. I'll think on this) Military will have basic attack and will reduce speed by certain amount based on mark ("interdiction" as it is, 25% for mk1, 33% for mk2, 50% for mk3) to make it more of a "blockade" type command station for perimeters. Keep the munitions boost, keep the attack, and make sure it has a decent pile of hitpoints. As an added note: giving logistics stations a small repair range for a couple units will allow for early fleet maintenance on mid-way planets - it'll require ships to retreat from combat to be repaired (so retreat away from the military stations on the borders), but will keep the engineers free to do building. Personally, I hate microing engineers to keep them repairing instead of building, or building instead of repairing, so letting logistics stations take over basic repair abilities would make it easier to turn on "engineers prefer non-military" without hamstringing your fleet by not allowing it to be repaired. Edit 2: A different idea, though it may be difficult to implement, is that that the AI is more likely to launch waves against planets guarded by military command stations than other command stations (though it has the same overall likelihood of launching waves in general, not an increased likelhood). That is, military command stations will purposefully draw AI waves, because from the player point of view they're more likely to be heavily defended, and thus can act as sort of a "strategic tank". Maybe make it 33% chance that any AI wave launched will target a mk1 military command station, 66% chance that any AI wave launched will target a mk2 military command station, and almost guaranteed that any AI wave launched will target a mk3 military command station. A reverse counterpart to a Warp Jammer station, if you will. |
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I think the logistics station is fine. The military station needs something special as well, i'm thinking along the lines of it should act as the Nuclear Command option in the start up. When it's destroyed it nukes the planet and destroys all non core ships. Of course it's not a proper nuke so the planet and resources are fine, just all ships are destroyed. Higher marks have much more health and an extra option as well such as attrition emitter at MK2 and embedded blackhole machine at MK3. I could see some tactical uses for this station and it would get at least some uses out of it. |
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As it stands, as long as Logistics has the speed decreasing/increasing aspect I will never use other command stations (except maybe an Econ in a backwater place), since Mk 2 and 3 Logistics Stations give a lot of crystal/metal anyway and having my fleet be zippy in defense or getting to the other side of my holdings was good. Military Command Stations would really have to be some kind of superfortress if you wanted me to use them for their guns. Otherwise they'd need a 'unique' mechanic that is more useful than munitions boosting that you can get a number of other ways. |
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I have another option for military command stations. The main benefit of the logistics command station, combat-wise, is on the defense your ships that have long ranges get twice as long to pound on the enemy ships while the enemy ships are still out of range of your ships. Rather than taking this away from logistics stations, would it be possible to give the military command stations varying powers of Range Boosting? Mk1 increases ranges of everything on the planet by 1.5x, mk2 by 2x, mk3 by 3x? The command stations are basically feeding targeting telemetry to on-planet ships and turrets, and it'll allow the turrets to cover more of the planet more easily, requiring fewer turrets to adequately defend the system (especially when combined with muniboosting). I don't know if this is possible at all, I'm assuming it is because it's just a reverse of the planetary Radar Jammers. |
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I think the range boosting idea is rather interesting. It's hard to tell whether in practice I'd pick it over logistical station but at least it's new and different. |
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I agree with Zeyurn. Range-boost would certainly be different and possibly tactically advantageous, but I have trouble deciding where I'd pick it over a Logistic station. (Also 3x range is huge) |
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3x range is not really as big as you think it is. Build a cluster of missile turrets at max range from a wormhole with an incoming wave (and only the cluster of missile turrets, nothing else), and see how long it takes the AI to get to it. That's about the range at which most of your turrets will be functioning, and it won't take the AI very long to get there. The advantage will be that the AI is more dispersed when it gets there. When it comes to turrets, the main issue I see is flak turrets - that's a huge range to be putting out that much high-damage AOE, but then you also have to remember that a player paid 9000 knowledge and a command station (and is losing a lot of resources compared to Mk3 econ, and mobility/interdiction compared to any of the logistics stations) as a result, so the results should be pretty impressive. |
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Its worth some experimentation, I agree. |
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what about something like armor boosting/inhibiting? |
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No, I think that should stay in the realm of Z-Trader equipment. A small boost is meaningless, and too large of a boost conflicts with the Planetary Armor Booster. (Likewise for inhibitors) |
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That and, say you use planetary armor boosting, and you unlock mk3 command stations, and then around 300 AIP one of the AIs unlocks Z Polarizers. Your military command stations just went obsolete, and that's 9000 knowledge you can't have back. |
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What about making the military command stations "protection stations" by giving them the following: * translocation shots and / or paralysis * a low health force field to protect something with * radar dampening with a bit bigger range than the attack range of the command station In combination this should result in it being able to handle 20-30 enemy units by itself and protect some valueable asset. |
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Okay, this is probably the last change to these before 5.0, at this stage: * Military Orbital Command Stations all now have translocation lightning as their attack type instead of missiles. |
| Date Modified | Username | Field | Change |
|---|---|---|---|
| Nov 10, 2010 1:35 pm | Wingflier | New Issue | |
| Nov 10, 2010 1:43 pm | keith.lamothe | Note Added: 0003193 | |
| Nov 10, 2010 2:02 pm | Lancefighter | Note Added: 0003194 | |
| Nov 10, 2010 2:05 pm | Wingflier | Note Added: 0003195 | |
| Nov 10, 2010 2:07 pm | Wingflier | Note Edited: 0003195 | |
| Nov 10, 2010 4:46 pm | TheDeadlyShoe | Note Added: 0003196 | |
| Nov 10, 2010 5:06 pm | HitmanN | Note Added: 0003198 | |
| Nov 10, 2010 5:23 pm | Winter Born | Note Added: 0003201 | |
| Nov 10, 2010 5:23 pm | Winter Born | Note Edited: 0003201 | |
| Nov 10, 2010 5:57 pm | Lancefighter | Note Added: 0003202 | |
| Nov 10, 2010 7:08 pm | HitmanN | Note Added: 0003208 | |
| Nov 12, 2010 12:57 am | ArcDM | Note Added: 0003263 | |
| Nov 12, 2010 10:51 am | KDR_11k | Note Added: 0003271 | |
| Nov 12, 2010 10:58 am | HitmanN | Note Added: 0003273 | |
| Nov 12, 2010 12:19 pm | KDR_11k | Note Added: 0003282 | |
| Nov 12, 2010 12:30 pm | HitmanN | Note Added: 0003284 | |
| Nov 12, 2010 12:32 pm | ArcDM | Note Added: 0003285 | |
| Dec 21, 2010 4:31 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Note Added: 0006704 | |
| Dec 21, 2010 4:31 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Assigned To | => keith.lamothe |
| Dec 21, 2010 4:31 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Status | new => feedback |
| Dec 26, 2010 2:47 am | Sunshine | Note Added: 0007056 | |
| Dec 26, 2010 2:49 am | Sunshine | Note Edited: 0007056 | |
| Dec 26, 2010 2:58 am | Sunshine | Note Edited: 0007056 | |
| Dec 26, 2010 6:54 am | Varone | Note Added: 0007061 | |
| Dec 27, 2010 7:42 pm | Zeyurn | Note Added: 0007112 | |
| Dec 28, 2010 3:26 pm | Sunshine | Note Added: 0007164 | |
| Dec 28, 2010 3:30 pm | Zeyurn | Note Added: 0007165 | |
| Dec 30, 2010 11:13 am | Draco18s | Note Added: 0007258 | |
| Dec 31, 2010 12:13 am | Sunshine | Note Added: 0007280 | |
| Dec 31, 2010 12:15 am | Draco18s | Note Added: 0007281 | |
| Dec 31, 2010 5:47 am | Lancefighter | Note Added: 0007290 | |
| Dec 31, 2010 9:34 am | Draco18s | Note Added: 0007293 | |
| Dec 31, 2010 3:15 pm | Sunshine | Note Added: 0007295 | |
| Jan 10, 2011 3:42 pm | Burnstreet | Note Added: 0008147 | |
| Jan 10, 2011 11:36 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Note Added: 0008192 | |
| Jan 10, 2011 11:36 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Status | feedback => resolved |
| Jan 10, 2011 11:36 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Fixed in Version | => 4.065 |
| Jan 10, 2011 11:36 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Resolution | open => fixed |
