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IDProjectCategoryLast Update
0000990AI War 1 / ClassicSuggestion - Balance TweaksNov 6, 2010 8:21 am
ReporterKDR_11k Assigned Tokeith.lamothe  
Status resolvedResolutionfixed 
Product Version4.021 
Summary0000990: Fortresses are too weak
DescriptionWhen the planet summary shows a fortress it used to be an "Oh ****" moment but with all the buffs that have been going around fortresses are barely even speedbumps these days. The pathetic damage output against Polycrystal hulls and the vulnerability of Ultra Heavy hulls means it goes down without even causing much damage. A Zenith Starship is a much better fortress than a fortress because the Neutron hull doesn't have as many powerful vulnerabilities and even a large blob will have to chew on it for quite some time. Maybe the fortresses could be dangerous again by giving them a Neutron hull so they're not as easily hard-countered.
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keith.lamothe

Nov 1, 2010 10:34 am

administrator   ~0002453

I think it has more to do with the armor rating mechanic making the fortress's massive-salvos-of-relatively-small-shots approach not nearly as effective as it once was. But will keep it in mind.

Lancefighter

Nov 1, 2010 11:12 am

reporter   ~0002454

well, the neutron hull's vulnerability is MLRS, both in turret and ship form.


Fortunately for players, the AI is guaranteed neither of these. (i think a guardian has a bonus against it, but also they just do a ton of raw damage sometimes)

83E63

Nov 1, 2010 12:14 pm

reporter   ~0002458

The neutron hull and better damage output would go far to making fortresses better.

keith.lamothe

Nov 1, 2010 12:31 pm

administrator   ~0002460

The UltraHeavy hull is an important part of its place in the balance system, as it's supposed to be vulnerable to stuff with bonuses against UltraHeavy. Neutron is for the weird stuff ;)

That said, we can just 2x fortress health or something, halve the shots, and double (or perhaps triple, to give it a net bonus) the damage of each shots. Alternatively we could look into armor piercing but I think that's contra the intent: it's not armor piercing, it's beat-the-door-down :)

orzelek

Nov 1, 2010 1:40 pm

reporter   ~0002462

It could have neutron hull - and you could take it away from AI's. They have all the new toys now and don't need fortresses.

Lancefighter

Nov 1, 2010 2:02 pm

reporter   ~0002466

honestly, im not sure i disagree with that.

Fortresses at one point were feared - let them be so again. (id still say there needs to be fortresses in ai home or whatnot, but having a fortress in EVERY system just gets a bit silly)

keith.lamothe

Nov 1, 2010 2:04 pm

administrator   ~0002467

Well, the MkIII should be feared, at least. MkIs being speedbumps to midgame fleets is not out of kilter. MkIIs somewhere inbetween.

Personally I think they could stand to be seeded on not-quite-as-many AI worlds.

Winter Born

Nov 1, 2010 2:18 pm

reporter   ~0002469

If they functioned when out of supply they would also be more formidable.
As another buff they could have 2 weapon types instead of just missiles (a long range - missiles and shorter range ???close defense weapon)

(configurable Fortresses were a poll winner iirc)

keith.lamothe

Nov 1, 2010 2:20 pm

administrator   ~0002471

Oh yes, modular fortresses are coming, it's just something that keeps getting pushed back (along with modular command stations, etc) time-wise.

keith.lamothe

Nov 1, 2010 4:35 pm

administrator   ~0002483

Ok, I've made some changes for 4.023 that should help.

orzelek

Nov 1, 2010 5:50 pm

reporter   ~0002487

There is one more thing - they regen and can't be repaired which means that if one gets severely damaged you simply can scrap it since regen time to full is in hours.

TheDeadlyShoe

Nov 5, 2010 9:09 pm

reporter   ~0002798

I think Fortresses may actually need a design change. In my view, the essential problem is that existing defences are sufficient to deal with most anything except bombers... and bombers steamroll fortresses. So, for players, they dont make a system much tougher against real threats. And for AIs, well, players always bring bombers anyway to deal with force fields and frigates. So their fortresses always get stomped in short order.

Lancefighter

Nov 5, 2010 9:12 pm

reporter   ~0002799

Missile turrets are absolutely amazing vs bombers.....

Wingflier

Nov 5, 2010 10:59 pm

reporter   ~0002802

I'm actually glad Fortresses are a lot easier to kill than they were pre-4.0.

Prior to 4.0, Fortresses were extremely powerful, but also nearly impossible to kill without upgraded bombers.

1. I don't like being pigeonholed into a certain unit type simply because of 1 enemy unit that I basically can't deal with without them.

2. The rate at which Fortresses killed fighters was extremely frustrating to the player. When you entered a system against T3 Fortresses and up, your entire army of Fighters was gone within seconds. I can't think of another AI unit that can kill 1 unit type on such a massive scale, nor do I see the need for it.

3. I feel like Fortresses remove depth from the game because they limit the strategical options of the player. Since, if not targeted first, they will slowly eat away your army (except for Fighters which die almost instantly), they force the player into attacking them, limiting their tactical options.

Sure, you can make the argument that Fortresses add 'depth' to the game by influencing the player to use "hit and run tactics" on enemies, killing critical targets and escaping before they take too much damage from it (or them); but even then I would disagree because most of the time you HAVE to kill the fortresses since they will inevitably be on planets you need to capture.

Considering the ridiculous amount of damage Forts do against light units, on such a large scale, I would almost prefer that they just chose random targets, so they wouldn't decimate entire Fighter armies so quickly. Either way, I sincerely hope they never reach the state they were at prior to 4.0.

orzelek

Nov 6, 2010 8:21 am

reporter   ~0002809

Actually fortress in their current form were quite dangerous when we played yesterday. It's hard to tell if they were to good - since when you attack full planet of units you can't really tell what made you run away with rest of your fleet :D

Issue History

Date Modified Username Field Change
Oct 31, 2010 10:44 am KDR_11k New Issue
Nov 1, 2010 10:34 am keith.lamothe Note Added: 0002453
Nov 1, 2010 10:35 am keith.lamothe Status new => considering
Nov 1, 2010 11:12 am Lancefighter Note Added: 0002454
Nov 1, 2010 12:14 pm 83E63 Note Added: 0002458
Nov 1, 2010 12:31 pm keith.lamothe Note Added: 0002460
Nov 1, 2010 1:40 pm orzelek Note Added: 0002462
Nov 1, 2010 2:02 pm Lancefighter Note Added: 0002466
Nov 1, 2010 2:04 pm keith.lamothe Note Added: 0002467
Nov 1, 2010 2:18 pm Winter Born Note Added: 0002469
Nov 1, 2010 2:20 pm keith.lamothe Note Added: 0002471
Nov 1, 2010 4:35 pm keith.lamothe Note Added: 0002483
Nov 1, 2010 4:35 pm keith.lamothe Status considering => resolved
Nov 1, 2010 4:35 pm keith.lamothe Resolution open => fixed
Nov 1, 2010 4:35 pm keith.lamothe Assigned To => keith.lamothe
Nov 1, 2010 5:50 pm orzelek Note Added: 0002487
Nov 5, 2010 9:09 pm TheDeadlyShoe Note Added: 0002798
Nov 5, 2010 9:12 pm Lancefighter Note Added: 0002799
Nov 5, 2010 10:59 pm Wingflier Note Added: 0002802
Nov 6, 2010 8:21 am orzelek Note Added: 0002809