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IDProjectCategoryLast Update
0002946AI War 1 / ClassicSuggestion - Balance TweaksMar 23, 2011 4:51 pm
ReporterIrxallis Assigned ToChris_McElligottPark  
Status resolvedResolutionfixed 
Product Version5.002 
Fixed in Version5.007 
Summary0002946: Make ships generated by knowledge raid of zombie type.
DescriptionShips which are generated at the Command Station while performing Knowledge Raid are normal, non-zombie ships.
This is not consistent with AI Aye generated ships and SuperTerminal generated ships, being as abusable as the former before those being changed.

This makes it possible to use a Botnet Golem to easily perform a knowledge raid, making it a cheap way to generate knowledge without any risks.

Link to a forum thread about the issue:
http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,8343.0.html

Attached an image presenting the use of Botnet Golem alongside the fleet. At that point the army is just a cover for a Golem and the full attack is absorbed by the zombies. If we wanted to, we could continue indefinitely, generating LOTS of zombies, especially planting one MRS on the planet under force fields and hidden by a cloaker.

Note: on the attached picture dark blue player did not bring any unit to the planet except the golem. Please look at the unit count versus enemy units.
TagsNo tags attached.
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Activities

Irxallis

Feb 24, 2011 6:20 pm

reporter  

soMe_RandoM

Feb 24, 2011 6:30 pm

reporter   ~0010742

or u could convert spawning to core ships with appropriate spawning conversion. thus solve problem of bot-net, and they wont be mindless zombies roaming round stupidly lols XD

Red Spot

Feb 25, 2011 1:07 pm

reporter   ~0010749

I'm against making them zombies.
Pro making them mk5 though. If you want the knowledge that bad? You'll just have to fight for it.

KDR_11k

Feb 25, 2011 2:44 pm

reporter   ~0010750

Consider the value of a knowledge raid though. If it's too hard it may just be easier to smash an AI system and get knowledge the regular way, absorbing the AIP penalty.

BobTheJanitor

Feb 25, 2011 3:48 pm

reporter   ~0010751

Yeah making them MkV is a bad idea. There's no reason to drastically increase the difficulty of knowledge raiding just to patch an exploit. Just make them zombies, what's the difference?

Irxallis

Feb 25, 2011 3:59 pm

reporter   ~0010752

1) Making them zombies:
- is consistent with every other generation
- solves the problem of abusing enemy spawn without introduction of a new type of mechanics.

2) Making them MkV with reduced spawn
- makes it abusable if you have Paralyzers, Maws, Nanoswarm (maybe Martyrs?) or other 'denial' unit for too low spawn
- makes it impossible to execute knowledge raid for too high spawn, especially without denial units

3) Making them MkV with no spawn reduction
- makes it impossible to execute knowledge raids at all

Personally I prefer making them zombies, as it just 'works' (SuperTerminal / Eye). MkV, although inconsistent with the others, would resolve the problem too with smaller spawn (though it opens another can of worms). If there is no reduction of a spawn though... I prefer it to be unchanged, as Botnet Golem does not exist in every game and thus this exploit is not THAT bad in usual cases (and knowledge raid is useful, even if very expensive).

Draco18s

Feb 25, 2011 5:03 pm

developer   ~0010757

I'm pro-zombie.
(How often do you hear that, huh?)

Draco Cretel

Feb 25, 2011 8:46 pm

reporter   ~0010769

Yeah, Zombies if anything is done to them. It's very hard to raid knowledge in the early to mid game, but once you hit a critical mass of ships and learn a few tricks(putting down tractor beams, decloaker, and grav turrets) it's not hard at all.

I always clear out the system fully, even wormhole guard posts, before raiding knowledge, it makes it a ton easier! Only down side is that does take more time to do all that.

Red Spot

Feb 26, 2011 7:05 am

reporter   ~0010773

I dont see how mk5's would make this so hard, havent yet heard anyone complain about FS-waves etc ..
Zombies would works, but as everything 'zombie spams' I'd rather see this implemented a bit different than just default to 'zombie spam'.
Also any argument about mk5s making it difficult, should it not be like that? Afaik knowledge raiding should in effect cost you your fleet ... should. As it is now it is just a fight for a few minutes while you get an other cost-free 3k knowledge, with or without botnet golems.

KDR_11k

Feb 26, 2011 9:32 am

reporter   ~0010780

Last edited: Feb 26, 2011 9:33 am

FS waves are very limited and a punishment for going for a victory condition.

Paying your whole fleet for a knowledge raid seems too expensive to me, smashing some easy system for 20 AIP isn't THAT expensive so raids only make a difference if you do them repeatedly.

If raids give too much knowledge too easily then reduce the knowledge they can gain per system.

BobTheJanitor

Feb 26, 2011 2:00 pm

reporter   ~0010782

I don't know if knowledge raiding is really too easy or too hard right now, but it is quite time and/or fleet strength consuming. You have to pretty well clean an entire planet, or dedicate a large portion of your firepower to accomplish it. And those MkIII labs have a base build time of 15 minutes, so you need to dedicate a lot of engineers or wait quite a while for it to get built before you even start seeing payback from your efforts. I think the costs are pretty balanced right now.

And comparing them to FS waves doesn't make sense; you're given some hefty firepower to deal with those waves. If knowledge raiding auto-magically spawned me a few spire frigates to deal with the spawns, then sure, go ahead and make them MkV. :P

soMe_RandoM

Feb 26, 2011 5:22 pm

reporter   ~0010786

forget zombies if they act same in AI hands, then that alright though they have problem of HURRGRRRG!!! BRAINS!!!!!! that spheres, zombies, ally ship are experiencing.

Chris_McElligottPark

Mar 23, 2011 9:56 am

administrator   ~0011326

Excellent idea!

* AI ships that are spawned in response to saboteurs, such as the human mark III science lab, are now zombie bots.

Red Spot

Mar 23, 2011 2:21 pm

reporter   ~0011343

Perhaps it may sound strange coming from me, but ... cool :)
I expressed my ideas and it formed a minority, zombies are a very close second :)

Chris_McElligottPark

Mar 23, 2011 4:51 pm

administrator   ~0011350

:)

Issue History

Date Modified Username Field Change
Feb 24, 2011 6:20 pm Irxallis New Issue
Feb 24, 2011 6:20 pm Irxallis File Added: Screenshot_2011_02_24_23_02_17.png
Feb 24, 2011 6:30 pm soMe_RandoM Note Added: 0010742
Feb 25, 2011 1:07 pm Red Spot Note Added: 0010749
Feb 25, 2011 2:44 pm KDR_11k Note Added: 0010750
Feb 25, 2011 3:48 pm BobTheJanitor Note Added: 0010751
Feb 25, 2011 3:59 pm Irxallis Note Added: 0010752
Feb 25, 2011 5:03 pm Draco18s Note Added: 0010757
Feb 25, 2011 8:46 pm Draco Cretel Note Added: 0010769
Feb 26, 2011 7:05 am Red Spot Note Added: 0010773
Feb 26, 2011 9:32 am KDR_11k Note Added: 0010780
Feb 26, 2011 9:33 am KDR_11k Note Edited: 0010780
Feb 26, 2011 2:00 pm BobTheJanitor Note Added: 0010782
Feb 26, 2011 5:22 pm soMe_RandoM Note Added: 0010786
Mar 23, 2011 9:56 am Chris_McElligottPark Note Added: 0011326
Mar 23, 2011 9:56 am Chris_McElligottPark Status new => resolved
Mar 23, 2011 9:56 am Chris_McElligottPark Fixed in Version => 5.007
Mar 23, 2011 9:56 am Chris_McElligottPark Resolution open => fixed
Mar 23, 2011 9:56 am Chris_McElligottPark Assigned To => Chris_McElligottPark
Mar 23, 2011 2:21 pm Red Spot Note Added: 0011343
Mar 23, 2011 4:51 pm Chris_McElligottPark Note Added: 0011350