View Issue Details
| ID | Project | Category | Date Submitted | Last Update | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 0002902 | AI War 1 / Classic | Suggestion - Balance Tweaks | Feb 21, 2011 11:13 am | Mar 23, 2011 12:10 am | |
| Reporter | Fleet | Assigned To | Chris_McElligottPark | ||
| Status | feature for later | Resolution | open | ||
| Product Version | 5.000 | ||||
| Summary | 0002902: Spire Starships utility vs cost | ||||
| Description | I'm not sure that, for the price I pay in resources and energy for the spire starship, that it is worth the cost. In particular, it does not seem effective against large groups of units (as the description says it should be), since it is limited to 4 shots per 2 seconds, and fleet ships have enough HP that many do not die in one shot. | ||||
| Tags | No tags attached. | ||||
| Internal Weight | |||||
| related to | 0003080 | resolved | Chris_McElligottPark | Split Zenith, Spire, and Fleet starship lines into separate trees? (Response to knowledge costs) |
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The only two advantages that they seem to have over Zenith starships is a moderately higher DPS (assuming all shots go to a singe target) and actual bonuses (the Zenith starship gets none, instead getting a .01x against poly-crystal). (I can't remember what their ranges are like. Does the Spire Starship have a better range?) Other than that, they don't have that much more going for them. In fact, they are actually a little less durable than Zenith starships, which seems weird. Given that both the Zenith and the Spire love expensive but durable units, it seems to me that they should be at least the same durability. |
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I think the Zenith and Spire starships have roughly equal utility, the Zenith is more of a mobile fortress and can't touch bombers, the Spire is a bit weaker but doesn't have a specific weakness like that. |
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Oh, I also meant to look at the utility versus the knowledge cost, which is quite high at 7000 for the spire alone. Considering 7000 can get me Mk III and IV ships of one type, the return here seems much less (and indeed the number of fleet ships unlocked for 7000 knowledge lets me spread out over several worlds.) Even with the spire starship at one world (only one ship, after all), it cannot take down any significant number of AI ships before they reach my command station (to defend against wave, for example), which is a huge negative. I don't care if it survives for a while, if the AI ships make it to my station and destroy it. |
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It gives a munitions boost to nearby fleet ships though, it's not meant to be used alone. I've used a group of Zeniths and Spires as a deep raiding force before, using them to target data centers. The survivability of 15M Neutron hitpoints really helps there. |
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7000 Knowledge is steep to me. I used to love unlocking it, but they seem to die faster then the Zenith, and the zenith have higher ship cap and there attack is slightly more efficient, even if the dps is a little lower in fleet battles. The only time you would unlock this is if you had nothing else to spend it on, and you always have something else to spend it on. Either buff the ship or shrink the cost in my opinion, maybe make it 5000 and on the same level on the tech tree as the Zenith ship. (Meaning you can choose either Zenith or Spire right after flagship.) I mean, for 7000 knowledge it could unlock real Spire Siege Towers and you would still hesitate. |
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Isn't the Spire Starship stronger than the Siege Tower? I always consider the ST one of the weaker threats out there. |
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Im not sure. I don't usualy use the spire starships, except for penetrators and the transports. |
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I use the asteroids mostly for martyrbombing, maybe a siege tower or two because it's the only straight firepower option and I have nothing better to do with them. The main problem with the spire and zenith starships is that they weren't rebalanced with the whole damage number inflation going on, only their costs went way up. |
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For its cost, it had better give me a whole lot more utility than a glorified munitions booster, that can still manage to be taken out quickly if the AI has a unit thats strong against it. |
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"7000 Knowledge is steep to me. I used to love unlocking it, but they seem to die faster then the Zenith, and the zenith have higher ship cap and there attack is slightly more efficient, even if the dps is a little lower in fleet battles. The only time you would unlock this is if you had nothing else to spend it on, and you always have something else to spend it on." They actually have the same ship cap. You get 2 Zenith Starships and 2 Spire starships for your 13000 total knowlage (zenith starship is 5000 knowlage) |
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Spire starship has something on the order of 20k range. This is both a benefit and a problem, since the range is nice but giving a simple attack order will move the fleet away from the spire starship, which negates its potential as a munitions booster. Also, keep in mind that Spire and Zenith starships are pretty difficult for players to kill - I hit a mk3 counterattack post pretty early in a game once which spawned a Spire and a Zenith, and it took forever for a cap of mk1 chameleons and mk1 frigates (both with bonuses against Neutron) plus turrets to actually kill either of the starships (didn't have mk2 ships yet because was trying something different). I actually had to do a savescum because the zenith managed to chew through three forcefields and my home command station pretty much unassisted before I could kill it. I think the main problem is the pretty excessive knowledge costs on the starships - it costs more knowledge to unlock up to mk3 of any of the combat starships than it does for literally anything else in the game. 9000 total for mk3 of any command station, 8500 for up to mk4 of any fleetship (6000 only if you hit an ARS), 9000 IIRC for mk3 fortress (2000/3000/4000? or was it 3000/4000/5000? Either way, a fortress provides more utility than a starship for the knowledge). Starships are just not powerful enough to justify that kind of cost, but I'd be hesitant to make them more powerful. It's also a little confusing because the devs keep saying they want starships to be required to be used, but then we've got such excessive costs involved with putting out a single starship (in knowledge, resources, and time). I know there are players who like starships, but I don't often hear of players making use of mk3 (or even mk2) of most of the starships until it's the ridiculously late endgame and they've got tons of knowledge to blow because they've done a complete conquest. With the inclusion of spirecraft and golems I tend to go for those instead, because they're easier to get access to and more cost-effective (barring siege starships - love the buggers, but never unlock to mk2 or mk3). |
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Yeah, the starships could probably be cheaper at least in the knowledge department. There's no way they're that much better than a full cap of fleet ships of equal mark level and I'm not sure how the build costs compare either. |
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The only starship I unlock is Riot Control Mk2, because the Tazer owns face. |
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I will say this. In my experiences, the starships I build in my games have a magnificent average life time. I very rarely lose starships; even my light starships rarely die. As such, I think their build costs and times are about right. They could go down a bit, but given how long they can last with a properly balanced fleet, I don't think those costs are out of line. However, their research costs most certainly are out of line. Its like, what, 5000 knowledge for the Mk. II siege and bomber starships? Not worth it. The only starship I consider worth 5000 knowledge is the Zenith starship for its raw power and especially durability, the likes of which even a cap of fleet ships of MKs II-III will have trouble matching. The base research cost for the Mk. II and Mk. III starships need to be brought down a good bit. Does a 3000 base Mk. II starship unlock cost sound reasonable? |
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In my experience, Human starships cost more then spire craft on a per unit basis in terms of HP, damage, and range. Compared to fleetships, starships are average, except for the awful research cost. The research really needs to be brought down. For my tactics of blitzing, Human starships are either frail or expensive (except for the Raider, which is a wild card.) I'd say slightly decrease the cost of specialized ones (bombers, siege) while leaving their stats the same. |
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I barely use starships at all, I don't think the knowledge and resource cost is worth it. Rather spend my knowledge on unlocking higher tier normal ships or logistic command station and I rather use my resources on golems. Only the zenith starships are usefull in my opinion. maybe Mk II raider starships but MK III is too expensive, same for pretty much anything else. A full cap of mark 2 and 3 fighters is capable of killing off an early game wave, or at least keeping it busy long enough. a single spire starship costs more in both knowledge and resources, but won't be able to stall enemies long enough. I'd like to see starships usefull. And I don't mean making them more powerfull, because we already got spire stuff and golems. But a drop on knowledge and / or resource cost would be nice |
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Okay, so the consensus is that since a ship cap of a starship type of any given Mk. is generally less useful than a ship cap of a similar fleet ship type of that same Mk., knowledge costs of starships should be brought down to reflect that. With metal costs, crystal costs, and build times of starships, the consensus is less clear. Some seem to propose a major reduction to those, other seem to think only a slight reduction is needed (I'm in this camp), and others seem to think that those costs are fine as is. |
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See notes on the related 0002902. |
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You mean notes on 0003080? |
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Yeah -- thanks. :) |
| Date Modified | Username | Field | Change |
|---|---|---|---|
| Feb 21, 2011 11:13 am | Fleet | New Issue | |
| Feb 21, 2011 11:20 am | TechSY730 | Note Added: 0010583 | |
| Feb 21, 2011 2:24 pm | KDR_11k | Note Added: 0010599 | |
| Feb 21, 2011 3:01 pm | Fleet | Note Added: 0010601 | |
| Feb 22, 2011 2:44 am | KDR_11k | Note Added: 0010632 | |
| Feb 22, 2011 8:40 am | Entrenched Homeperson | Note Added: 0010634 | |
| Feb 22, 2011 8:41 am | Entrenched Homeperson | Note Edited: 0010634 | |
| Feb 22, 2011 9:00 am | KDR_11k | Note Added: 0010635 | |
| Feb 22, 2011 9:06 am | Entrenched Homeperson | Note Added: 0010636 | |
| Feb 22, 2011 9:32 am | KDR_11k | Note Added: 0010637 | |
| Feb 22, 2011 9:34 am | KDR_11k | Note Edited: 0010637 | |
| Mar 18, 2011 1:15 am | Fleet | Note Added: 0011144 | |
| Mar 18, 2011 5:40 pm | Sir T | Note Added: 0011155 | |
| Mar 18, 2011 5:40 pm | Sir T | Note Edited: 0011155 | |
| Mar 21, 2011 1:54 pm | Sunshine | Note Added: 0011184 | |
| Mar 21, 2011 4:12 pm | KDR_11k | Note Added: 0011187 | |
| Mar 21, 2011 5:11 pm | Draco18s | Note Added: 0011194 | |
| Mar 21, 2011 5:49 pm | TechSY730 | Note Added: 0011200 | |
| Mar 21, 2011 5:50 pm | TechSY730 | Note Edited: 0011200 | |
| Mar 21, 2011 5:51 pm | TechSY730 | Note Edited: 0011200 | |
| Mar 21, 2011 5:51 pm | TechSY730 | Note Edited: 0011200 | |
| Mar 21, 2011 6:52 pm | chemical_art | Note Added: 0011202 | |
| Mar 21, 2011 11:11 pm | Sunshine | Relationship added | related to 0003080 |
| Mar 22, 2011 4:49 pm | zoutzakje | Note Added: 0011226 | |
| Mar 22, 2011 5:03 pm | TechSY730 | Note Added: 0011228 | |
| Mar 22, 2011 5:16 pm | TechSY730 | Note Edited: 0011228 | |
| Mar 22, 2011 5:16 pm | TechSY730 | Note Edited: 0011228 | |
| Mar 22, 2011 5:17 pm | TechSY730 | Note Edited: 0011228 | |
| Mar 22, 2011 11:46 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Note Added: 0011303 | |
| Mar 22, 2011 11:46 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Assigned To | => Chris_McElligottPark |
| Mar 22, 2011 11:46 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Status | new => feature for later |
| Mar 23, 2011 12:07 am | Draco18s | Note Added: 0011313 | |
| Mar 23, 2011 12:10 am | Chris_McElligottPark | Note Added: 0011314 |
