View Issue Details
| ID | Project | Category | Date Submitted | Last Update | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 0002655 | AI War 1 / Classic | Suggestion - New Unit Ideas - Economic and Utility Units | Jan 26, 2011 5:09 pm | Feb 3, 2011 4:09 am | |
| Reporter | Varone | Assigned To | Chris_McElligottPark | ||
| Status | considering | Resolution | open | ||
| Product Version | 4.073 | ||||
| Summary | 0002655: External Invincibility Device | ||||
| Description | Reverse engineered from the AI - this support structure costs around 7k knowledge to unlock. This device provides external invincibility to the command station on the planet that it is built on. It has no weapons but a good amount of health so that it can withstand moderate damage. The device unfortunatly is immune to repair and costs a significant amount of crystal and metal. | ||||
| Tags | No tags attached. | ||||
| Internal Weight | |||||
| related to | 0001185 | considering | Candy tech: Commandstation Exo-forcefield |
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A definite must have for the home planet once you can afford it. To keep it balanced, I say something along the cost of a Mk. II or even Mk. III fortress to construct. Similar energy consumption too. Will there be a warning for when this structure is under attack? It would only make sense, as it would be basically an extension of your command station. |
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If such a thing would be implemented I think it should be usable to protect fabricators/markIVfactorys/etc too. |
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Agree with hullu, but I'd be cautious with that direction. |
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What sort of unit cap are we talking about here? 2, 3, 5? |
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2, tops. But I could see it scaling with home station counts. (Perhaps 1 * Cores + 1) |
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I think some things should stay in the realm of the AI. I rahter support some kind of gigantic forcefield. |
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One of the reason's I supported this is to give a better counter to a Raid Starship. What's that you say? Raid Starships already have counters? If you are talking about sniper turrets and missile turrets, then yes, those work good. The problem is that even if you max them out, they will struggle killing the raid starships in time if there are many raid starships and/or there are many other ships as well. Plus there is the fact that turrets only really work well if the ships they are meant to kill can be stalled. Raid starships are of course immune to almost all forms of stalling. "But they are not immune to gravity turrets" you may say. True, but gravity turrets, even the high level ones, will not last long against a several thousand unit attack, something that is quite likely mid-late game. Effectively, the MECHANICS available to the player are insufficient to stop dedicated attacks that also use several raid starships. (such an attack is not as rare as you might think it is) This suggestion would give us such an mechanic. An alternate idea is to make a sort of exo-forcefield for command stations (with similarly really high costs). This would also be nifty now that the exo-forcefield mechanic has an immunity to force field immunity (meaning, ff immune ships cannot shoot through it). I you like the command station exo-forcefield idea better, I think that is also on mantis, but I don't know where. EDIT: The raid-starship immunity to forcefields in addition to the inability to stall it effectively is the reason why an even tougher still forcefield wouldn't really help. |
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Found the command station exo-ff suggestion. Added because it addresses similar issues and it is intended to counter similar things. |
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I never had problems with raid starships... ;) Not sure what you are doing if they are so horrible? Sometimes they avoid my defenses, of course, but thats part of the fun :P. |
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Neither have I, to be honest. However, if like 10-20 of them enter into a planet at the same time on a planet, that planet is pretty much screwed, no matter how well you prepared you are with STATIC defenses. Especially if there were many, many other ships there as well. These ideas would give you some time to get some of your mobile fleet to deal with it. Sound far fetched? Not really. This is very plausible in the late game or event attacks. (Though some people have reported seeing this type of situation as early as the mid game, where there is no way you could handle this. This may need looking into.) |
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I never saw that many raid star ships even late game (tho I tend to never have more then 240 AIP even when I finish the last AI) ^^ Used the star ship command AI? I actually never played against that particular AI... but I might see that it can produce that levels of raids. |
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Well, how about the command station exo-forcefield idea? It is a less ab-usable, and does not give human players a new mechanic, only an old one on a new unit. As it is currently suggested, it is probably WAY too cheap, especially now the exo-forcefields have an immunity to forcefield immunity. But if the cost was bumped up to be balanced, would you support it? |
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> tho I tend to never have more then 240 AIP even when I finish the last AI Bullshit. That means that over the course of the game you acquired 130 AIP from non-homeworld factors. That's 5 planets colonized, tops (+1 planet per data center) and no time-based AIP increase. |
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On low difficulties on smallish maps with smart deep striking, 240 AIP at game end actually seems feasible. |
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The exo idea is more interesting, but my concern is that it might eventually make human defenses too good. While I admittedly like bunkering up under forcefields myself (I usually get MK III fields thats I use on my MK IV Factory and such), I realize if I was given even more defenses I would likely use it to try and make myself "unkillable" ;) The idea in and off itself is OK, but I am thinking of balance, if it gets too easy, then for me it looses some of the game play. A significant knowledge investment's could offset it to a degree tho, but needs to be very high, in the realm of mobile build-able MK IV factory we can already unlock I think. So that better defense would mean lesser offence and thus be a different strategy all together (might make it worth it in the Fallen Spire Plot). All in all I think I like the exo field better yes ;) |
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Draco: No, I just like to raid the data centers and co-processors. Also the super terminals. And I can do just fine with 6-7 planets in total. Sometimes you can add 20 or 40 more AIP to that score, depending on map type and starting position. But I do all I can to keep AIP low. Right now I am preparing to assault the AI in my latest game. The first AI. I got about 160 AIP, and I have yet to raid any data centers, and i got 3/4 Co-Pros left. So don't just call out bullshit without reason. And yes, I do not play with time based AIP at all, since I dislike that. |
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Well with so few planets, you clearly can't climb up the tech-tree much. How do you get enough power to take on the AI core worlds and the AI home worlds? |
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Sometimes I have to knowledge raid a little bit, I admit. But I take no shame in that. Its amazing what a full cap of Mk III/IV triangle ships can pull off with a little bit of support. Generally you have less defense to use this way, so I just have to use what I got in ways of Mk I turrets to keep me safe, sometimes with MK II MLRS's. Also important to make chokes and have some systems you just considers expendable, but rebuild-able. But if you knowledge raid say 2 planets you get a MK III/IV fleet ship. That can sometimes be worth it over capturing 2 new planets, even tho you loose out on the resources and energy (but do not gain AIP). I have played higher AIP games as well, they usually take longer to play, but then I capture more planets and have 100 to 200 higher AIP in general, but got defenses to cover it. It all basically boil down to what you prefer. |
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Your the kind of person who keeps making my game more difficult. x.X |
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;P I guess I can try and see it from another perspective (I have after all been playing AI war over a year now...), and change my opinion to more inclined in favor of an idea like this, but at high knowledge cost imo ;) |
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Have you played the fallen spire or any of the hard spirecraft or hard golems? Event attacks have this tendency to mix in raid starships at nasty times. EDIT: Ozy, if you like the command station exo-forcefield too, vote that up as well. The devs have made it clear that they will be looking heavily at vote tallies in these next few versions. |
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Some of us play one game about every 2 months. I haven't completed a game since 3.8. I haven't successfully knowledge raided since [i]before Mk3 Science Labs[/i] (actually, just post). I've never deep-striked, except the one game prior to the transport attrition change (I think that was the last game I won...). |
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I must have clocked inn 0000024:0000400 hours at least of AI war, and have reworked my strategy enough to be fairly efficient I think... ;) I have played the Hard Golem game, fun stuff, there I need a bit more AIP to get what I want ;), but the Golem waves are not too brutal on low AIP, and wit careful planning you can handled them. I beta tested the Fallen Spire plot arc, its first incarnation was brutal to say the least with multi Golem waves on several fronts that eventually got the better of me. After some changes Keith made I completed a Fallen Spire game as well, it was a very high AIP game since I needed planets for the hubs, and I needed a lot of knowledge. That game I lost all my Mk IV factory's as well :P, but then the spire ships offset that. But still, not been menaced by raids yet ;) After current game I plan on a hard Spire Game as well, yet to test that one. TechSY, I will see if I find it on mantis. |
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Already did it. ;) Check the related issues. |
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About 'how do you play and when do you see this problem'. I think it's been asnwered several timse in forum and here too. But the problem mostly (not only, but it gets extreme) manifests in LotS campaign on event attack waves when you can have upwards of 50 (or even 100) massive ships (spirecraft and the like) coming in with thousands of escorts, including dozens of starships. Curiously, the only things in these waves that usually pose a game-ending threat are the raid starships, they're simply in a league of their own, and without micro they are somewhat likely to end your game absolutely suddenly even though all the other ships your fleets+turrets can counter passively. I'd love to see a thing to counter these sudden death situations. Hell, you could make it a point to not use it if you don't like it. But I hate it when my game ends suddenly just because I failed to bother to or just simply failed to micro. I also hate losing fabricators and mkIV factories to similiar incidents, it just is no fun to me at all. My proposal would be somethign in the realm if 5-10k knowledge, lots of extra hp (at least five million) (nothing else would be protected) for a command station or fabricator/factory. Pretty hefty energy cost, maybe around 50k. And a ship cap of 2 or 3. Three would mean you could protect one fabricator, one mkIV factory and home command station. For lots of knowledge and energy. Even I with all my whining about the issue would definitely not use these in all games - but in some I would find them nice game-savers. |
| Date Modified | Username | Field | Change |
|---|---|---|---|
| Jan 26, 2011 5:09 pm | Varone | New Issue | |
| Jan 26, 2011 5:09 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Assigned To | => Chris_McElligottPark |
| Jan 26, 2011 5:09 pm | Chris_McElligottPark | Status | new => considering |
| Jan 26, 2011 6:27 pm | TechSY730 | Note Added: 0009709 | |
| Jan 26, 2011 6:34 pm | TechSY730 | Note Edited: 0009709 | |
| Jan 27, 2011 4:09 am | hullu | Note Added: 0009719 | |
| Jan 28, 2011 1:04 am | Draco18s | Note Added: 0009754 | |
| Jan 28, 2011 1:06 am | TechSY730 | Note Added: 0009756 | |
| Jan 28, 2011 1:08 am | Draco18s | Note Added: 0009757 | |
| Feb 2, 2011 9:44 am | Ozymandiaz | Note Added: 0009949 | |
| Feb 2, 2011 9:45 am | Ozymandiaz | Note Edited: 0009949 | |
| Feb 2, 2011 5:41 pm | TechSY730 | Note Added: 0009960 | |
| Feb 2, 2011 5:43 pm | TechSY730 | Note Edited: 0009960 | |
| Feb 2, 2011 5:49 pm | TechSY730 | Relationship added | related to 0001185 |
| Feb 2, 2011 5:51 pm | TechSY730 | Note Added: 0009961 | |
| Feb 2, 2011 5:51 pm | TechSY730 | Note Edited: 0009961 | |
| Feb 2, 2011 5:54 pm | Ozymandiaz | Note Added: 0009963 | |
| Feb 2, 2011 6:01 pm | TechSY730 | Note Added: 0009964 | |
| Feb 2, 2011 6:03 pm | TechSY730 | Note Edited: 0009964 | |
| Feb 2, 2011 6:04 pm | Ozymandiaz | Note Added: 0009965 | |
| Feb 2, 2011 6:10 pm | TechSY730 | Note Added: 0009966 | |
| Feb 2, 2011 6:10 pm | TechSY730 | Note Edited: 0009966 | |
| Feb 2, 2011 6:17 pm | Draco18s | Note Added: 0009967 | |
| Feb 2, 2011 6:19 pm | TechSY730 | Note Added: 0009968 | |
| Feb 2, 2011 6:19 pm | Ozymandiaz | Note Added: 0009969 | |
| Feb 2, 2011 6:19 pm | TechSY730 | Note Edited: 0009968 | |
| Feb 2, 2011 6:23 pm | Ozymandiaz | Note Added: 0009970 | |
| Feb 2, 2011 6:26 pm | TechSY730 | Note Added: 0009972 | |
| Feb 2, 2011 6:33 pm | Ozymandiaz | Note Added: 0009973 | |
| Feb 2, 2011 6:36 pm | Draco18s | Note Added: 0009974 | |
| Feb 2, 2011 6:38 pm | Ozymandiaz | Note Added: 0009975 | |
| Feb 2, 2011 6:39 pm | Ozymandiaz | Note Edited: 0009975 | |
| Feb 2, 2011 6:41 pm | TechSY730 | Note Added: 0009976 | |
| Feb 2, 2011 6:42 pm | Draco18s | Note Added: 0009977 | |
| Feb 2, 2011 6:42 pm | TechSY730 | Note Edited: 0009976 | |
| Feb 2, 2011 6:56 pm | Ozymandiaz | Note Added: 0009979 | |
| Feb 2, 2011 6:59 pm | TechSY730 | Note Added: 0009980 | |
| Feb 3, 2011 4:09 am | hullu | Note Added: 0009988 | |
| Feb 3, 2011 4:09 am | hullu | Note Edited: 0009988 |
